[As noted elsewhere, this professionally produced document has been altered in one respect, replacing the names of certain individuals by brief descriptors in brackets to protect their identity.]

Action No. 0103-14569

 

IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH OF ALBERTA

JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF EDMONTON

BETWEEN:

FERREL CHRISTENSEN

Plaintiff

- and -

THE NATIONAL POST COMPANY, NP HOLDINGS COMPANY,

GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS LIMITED and DONNA LAFRAMBOISE

Defendants

------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINUED EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY

OF

FERREL MARVIN CHRISTENSEN

(Volume II)

------------------------------------------------------------

G. A. Brown, Esq. For the Plaintiff

F. S. Kozak, Esq. For the Defendants

P. L. E. Eastwood, Esq.

D. L. Ragan, C.S.R. (A) Official Court Reporter/

Examiner

Edmonton, Alberta

17th and 18th February, 2005


00001

INDEX

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

D-7 PHOTOCOPY OF "SELECTED 367

CROSS-GENERATIONAL SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN

TRADITIONAL HAWAI'I: A SEXOLOGICAL

ETHNOGRAPHY," WRITTEN BY MILTON

DIAMOND, TAKEN FROM THE TEXT TITLED

PEDOPHILIA, BIOSOCIAL DIMENSIONS

D-8 COPY OF AN ARTICLE TITLED 378

"SOCIOPOLITICAL BIASES IN THE

CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE ON

ADULT HUMAN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR WITH

CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS" TAKEN FROM

THE TEXT PEDOPHILIA, BIOSOCIAL

DIMENSIONS

INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS

NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

12 ADVISE OF ANY OTHER REASONS 119

DR. CHRISTENSEN BELIEVES PARAGRAPH

15(B) IN THE STATEMENT OF DEFENSE IS

INCOMPLETE AND POTENTIALLY MISLEADING.

13 PROVIDE COPIES OF EMAILS THAT WOULD 128

OUTLINE THE BOUNDARIES OF

MS. MALENFANT'S DUTIES AND

RESPONSIBILITIES AND HER EXPECTED ROLE

THAT MIGHT RELATE BACK TO THE SCOPE OF

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S INVITATION TO HER.

14 PROVIDE TO PLAINTIFF'S COUNSEL THE 142

NAMES OF CLIENTS THAT [TIM] ADAMS

OBTAINED BECAUSE OF THEIR INVOLVEMENT

WITH ECMAS. ADVISE WHETHER THERE IS AN

ISSUE OF CONFIDENTIALITY; IF SO,

PROVIDE THE PLAINTIFF'S POSITION WITH

RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00002

15 PROVIDE THE NAME OF THE FEMALE LAWYER 147

THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN RECOMMENDED TO

VISITORS TO ECMAS.

(ANSWERED ON PAGE 148)

16 (UNDER ADVISEMENT) PRODUCE ALL OF THE175

NOTES THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS FOR

SUPPORT GROUP MEETINGS.

17 PRODUCE ANY EMAILS OR OTHER DOCUMENTS 213

THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS THAT DOCUMENT

THE FALLING OUT OR THE DETERIORATION IN

HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH LOUISE MALENFANT.

18 PROVIDE COPY OF THE JANUARY 26TH, 2001230

LETTER FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE.

19 IF DR. CHRISTENSEN IS UNABLE TO LOCATE232

HIS COPY OF THE JANUARY 26TH, 2001,

LETTER FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE, MAKE A

REQUEST FOR A COPY OF THE LETTER FROM

THE CHIEF JUSTICE THROUGH COUNSEL.

20 PROVIDE A TYPEWRITTEN COPY OF 238

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S HANDWRITTEN MINUTES

OR NOTES TAKEN FROM SUPPORT GROUP

MEETINGS.

(DOCUMENT 96 IN THE PLAINTIFF'S

PRODUCTION)

21 FURTHER TO UNDERTAKING NUMBER 4, WHICH243

WAS TAKEN UNDER ADVISEMENT, ADVISE IF

THERE ARE OTHER EMAILS NOT PRODUCED

REGARDING DR. CHRISTENSEN'S

CORRESPONDENCE BOTH TO AND FROM

DR. DIAMOND WITH RESPECT TO ISSUES

RAISED IN THIS LAWSUIT.

22 IDENTIFY IN THE ARTICLE TITLED "MORAL 256

FERVOR WITHOUT ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE DOES

EVIL" THOSE PASSAGES WHICH

DR. CHRISTENSEN SUGGESTS IDENTIFY THAT

HE HAS CONDEMNED ADULT/CHILD SEXUAL

RELATIONSHIPS IN THIS ARTICLE.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00003

23 IDENTIFY THE META-ANALYSIS OF STUDIES 257

OF CHILD SEX ABUSE REFERRED TO IN THE

ARTICLE TITLED "MORAL FERVOR WITHOUT

ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE DOES EVIL."

24 PROVIDE THE REMAINDER OF ANY 268

CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN DR. CHRISTENSEN

AND STEPHANE C. GIROUX THAT HE MIGHT

HAVE STILL IN HIS POSSESSION, POWER, OR

CONTROL, RELEVANT TO THE ISSUES IN THIS

LAWSUIT.

25 PRODUCE ANY FURTHER DOCUMENTS THAT 271

DR. CHRISTENSEN MIGHT HAVE WITH RESPECT

TO CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN HIMSELF AND

CATHY YOUNG THAT ARE RELEVANT TO THE

LAWSUIT.

26 IDENTIFY THE DATE THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN273

SENT MIKE LABERGE A COPY OF THE ESSAY

REFERRED TO IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S EMAIL

TO MARINA FORBISTER OF APRIL 28TH,

2001.

27 ADVISE IF THERE ARE ANY PORTIONS OF 278

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK WHERE HE

CONDEMNS INTERGENERATIONAL SEX.

28 ADVISE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE 280

ANY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK

THAT ALLUDE TO INTERGENERATIONAL SEX,

OTHER THAN THE REFERENCE AT THE BOTTOM

OF PAGE 112.

29 FURTHER TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S ASSERTION287

THAT THE TOPIC OF ADULT/CHILD SEXUAL

RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT IDENTIFIED IN HIS

BOOK, ADVISE OF ANY CHANGE IN THAT

ASSERTION AND IDENTIFY EITHER PASSAGES

IN THE TEXT OF HIS BOOK OR OTHER WORKS

REFERRED TO IN THE TEXT OR FOOTNOTES OR

BIBLIOGRAPHY WHERE INTERGENERATIONAL

SEX WAS A TOPIC OF THOSE PASSAGES OR

STUDIES.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00004

30 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN 290

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT WHICH HELP TO

DEFINE THE TERM "EARLY SEXUAL

EXPERIENCE" AS USED IN THE SENTENCE

QUOTED WITHIN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH ON

PAGE 110 OF THE TEXT.

31 ADVISE IF THERE'S ANY PASSAGES IN 291

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK THAT MIGHT

DEFINE THE TERM "SEXUAL ACTIVITY" AS IT

IS USED IN THE PASSAGE QUOTED ON PAGE

111 OF THE TEXT.

32 ADVISE WHETHER THERE ARE ANY OTHER 292

PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT

WHICH HELP DEFINE THE TERM "SEX PLAY"

AS USED IN THE SENTENCE QUOTED FROM THE

SECOND PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 111 OF THE

TEXT.

33 ADVISE AS TO ANY PASSAGES IN 294

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT WHERE HE FURTHER

DEFINES OR DISCUSSES THE WORDS OR

PHRASE "EROTICALLY EXPLICIT MATERIALS"

AS USED IN THE SENTENCE QUOTED IN THE

THIRD PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 111 OF THE

TEXT.

34 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN 295

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK WHERE HE REFERS

TO "DEVIANT SEX," WHICH WILL HELP TO

UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT WHEN HE

REFERRED TO "DEVIANT SEX" IN THE

PASSAGE QUOTED FROM THE THIRD PARAGRAPH

ON PAGE 111 OF THE TEXT.

35 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S302

BOOK THAT SHOW THAT MORALITY IS

RELEVANT TO ISSUES INVOLVING CHILDREN'S

SEXUALITY.

36 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S311

BOOK THAT DEAL WITH THE TOPIC OR ALLUDE

TO THE TOPIC OF TEACHING SEXUAL

RESTRAINT.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00005

37 IDENTIFY THE STUDIES THAT 331

DR. CHRISTENSEN RELIED ON IN SUPPORT OF

THE SENTENCE QUOTED FROM THE SECOND

PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 89 OF THE TEXT,

STUDIES THAT ARE NOT IDENTIFIED IN THE

BOOK.

38 ADVISE WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE 338

PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK

WHICH RELY ON OR USE INFORMATION

CONTAINED IN THE ARTICLE

"CROSS-GENERATIONAL SEX IN TRADITIONAL

HAWAI'I."

39 ADVISE WHAT PASSAGES OR PORTIONS OF 343

DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT MAY HAVE RELIED

ON THE CONTENT OF THE ARTICLE TITLED

"SOCIOPOLITICAL BIASES IN THE

CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE ON

ADULT HUMAN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR WITH

CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS" IN JAY R.

FEIERMAN'S PEDOPHILIA, BIOSOCIAL

DIMENSIONS.

40 ADVISE AS TO THE CORRECT IDENTIFICATIO347

OF THE ARTICLE WRITTEN BY DONNA

LAFRAMBOISE ABOUT SENATOR ANNE COOLS

THAT MIGHT HELP THE DEFENDANTS TO

PRODUCE OR OBTAIN THE ARTICLE.

41 ADVISE WHETHER THE MARCH 24, 2001, 348

EMAIL WAS SENT TO PERSONS IN ADDITION

TO DONNA LAFRAMBOISE AND THOSE PEOPLE

IDENTIFIED IN THE CC LINES.

42 IDENTIFY ALL OTHER PARTIES THAT 350

DR. CHRISTENSEN SENT THE EMAIL DATED

APRIL 3RD, 2001.

(TAB 37 OF THE PLAINTIFF'S PRODUCTION)

43 ADVISE AS TO A RECORD OR RECORDS WHICH358

WOULD SHOW THE PARTICULAR VOTE MADE BY

THE US CONGRESS WHICH CONDEMNED THE

META-ANALYSIS REFERRED TO IN THE FOURTH

PARAGRAPH OF PAGE E-3, WHICH IS

ATTACHED TO THE PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO

STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO

COUNTERCLAIM.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00006

44 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE SURVEY OF 359

LITERATURE BY THREE PROFESSORS IN THE

FACULTY OF MEDICINE, AT THE UNIVERSITY

OF AUCKLAND, REFERRED TO IN THE

PARENTHESES IN THE FOURTH PARAGRAPH OF

PAGE E-3, WHICH IS ATTACHED TO THE

PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO STATEMENT OF

DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO COUNTERCLAIM.

45 IDENTIFY WHAT ADDITIONAL ARTICLES 360

DR. CHRISTENSEN WAS RELYING ON OR

REFERRING TO WHEN HE MENTIONED

"SUBSEQUENT STUDIES" IN THE FOURTH

PARAGRAPH OF PAGE E-3, WHICH IS

ATTACHED TO THE PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO

STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO

COUNTERCLAIM.

46 ADVISE AS TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S 371

UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD "NONADULT" AS

USED BY MILTON DIAMOND IN THE ARTICLE

TITLED "SELECTED CROSS-GENERATIONAL

SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN TRADITIONAL HAWAI'I:

A SEXOLOGICAL ETHNOGRAPHY."

47 AFTER REVIEWING PORNOGRAPHY, THE OTHER378

SIDE, ADVISE WHAT PORTIONS OR PASSAGES

IN THE BOOK MAY HAVE BEEN BASED ON THE

CONTENT OF EXHIBIT D-8.

48 IF THE ARTICLE "SEXUAL CALLOUSNESS 383

RE-EXAMINED" WAS NOT THE ARTICLE

REFERRED TO IN THE FOOTNOTES FOLLOWING

THE ARTICLE TITLED "CULTURAL AND

IDEOLOGICAL BIAS IN PORNOGRAPHY

RESEARCH," PROVIDE THE ARTICLE THAT IS

BEING REFERRED TO IN THAT FOOTNOTE.

49 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE ARTICLE TITLED 384

"EFFECTS OF PORNOGRAPHY, THE DEBATE

CONTINUES."

50 ADVISE AS TO SPECIFIC OPPORTUNITIES TO392

PARTAKE IN ACTIVITIES THAT

DR. CHRISTENSEN OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE

PARTAKEN IN THAT HAVE BEEN LOST TO HIM

BECAUSE OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE

STATEMENTS HE HAS COMPLAINED OF IN THE

ARTICLE.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00007

51 PROVIDE ANY INSTANCES, ASIDE FROM THE

LETTER FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE, WHICH

DR. CHRISTENSEN CLAIMS SHOWS THAT

OPPORTUNITIES HAVE BEEN DENIED TO HIM

BY OTHERS BECAUSE OF THE STATEMENTS

THAT HE HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT IN HIS

STATEMENT OF CLAIM.

Undertakings listed in this transcript are provided

for your assistance only. Counsel's records may

differ. Please check transcript to ensure that all

undertakings have been listed according to your

records.

MR. KOZAK EXAMINES THE WITNESS 111

MR. EASTWOOD EXAMINES THE WITNESS 245

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


[For a list of the errors below that were later corrected, see Discoveries-FCCorrigenda.htm.]

00111

1 FERREL MARVIN CHRISTENSEN, AFFIRMED AT 10:00 A.M.,

2 EXAMINED BY MR. KOZAK:

3 Q Dr. Christensen, I want to ask you a series of

4 questions that relate to the Statement of Defense

5 that was filed on behalf of the Defendants in this

6 action, and your counsel will provide you with a

7 copy of that document, and I want you to refer to

8 paragraph 15.

9 A Okay. Is there a comment to that?

10 Q Yes. Paragraph 15 has a number of subparagraphs,

11 (a) through (t). Do you see them there?

12 A Oh, yes.

13 Q All right. Now, in your reply to this pleading,

14 you acknowledged that 15(a) through (s) were true,

15 but your reply went on to say that each of those

16 paragraphs, when taken in context, is either

17 irrelevant to the words complained of, or

18 incomplete and misleading, or both, and I want to

19 spend some time going through these paragraphs and

20 have you identify which category each of these fall

21 into, and why.

22 A Sounds good.

23 Q So starting with (a), which reads:

24 "The Equitable Child Maintenance and

25 Access Society, hereinafter ECMAS,

26 is a nonprofit corporation

27 incorporated April 14th, 1994, and

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00112

1 has an Edmonton chapter."

2 That is something that you've confirmed to be true

3 in your pleading. Can you tell me if that

4 statement is irrelevant to the words that you've

5 complained of?

6 A If I understand the legalese here --

7 Q Yes.

8 A -- it certainly doesn't seem relevant to me.

9 Obviously, it's a part of the whole case, but in

10 the particular matter here, it's not anything

11 actionable, and so irrelevant in that sense, I

12 would say.

13 Q All right. Is that statement, in your view,

14 incomplete and misleading?

15 A Not to my knowledge, no.

16 Q Thank you. The second paragraph reads:

17 "Some persons involved with ECMAS

18 have been falsely accused of

19 sexually abusing children."

20 You've confirmed that as being true in your reply.

21 Do you confirm that today?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And is that statement irrelevant to the words that

24 you've complained of from the article?

25 A Well, let me see. In the context of the case, it's

26 potentially misleading. Again, the legalese I may

27 be unclear on, but it's potentially misleading as

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00113

1 regards some of the issues that may arise in the

2 case, or seem to have arisen in the case, the point

3 being that, as a matter of agreement between the

4 two organizations, ECMAS and MERGE, those who

5 were -- presented themselves as falsely accused of

6 sexually abusing children were sent over to and

7 dealt with by ECMAS -- or, sorry, by MERGE rather

8 than by ECMAS, as a matter of division of labor

9 between the two groups. ECMAS dealt specifically

10 with access, maintenance and custody issues. MERGE

11 dealt with such related items as family violence,

12 family abuse, and false accusations of that, and it

13 was to this -- perhaps you can see why this is

14 somewhat relevant to the case, and so some of the

15 things that are said in the case would bear on

16 this, and it would -- it would be important to

17 understand, even though these people came to ECMAS

18 with this problem, they were not dealt with by

19 ECMAS for this problem. I hope that's clear.

20 Q Well, that certainly helps me understand the

21 different mandates of the two groups.

22 Now, you referred to an agreement between

23 ECMAS and MERGE in giving me your answer.

24 A Very informal about -- agreement made about 1995 or

25 '96 or so between me and the person who was

26 president at that time.

27 Q And who was that?

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00114

1 A Caroline Van Ee.

2 Q And was that agreement ever reduced to writing?

3 A I believe not.

4 Q And whose idea was that?

5 A It was probably mine in the first instance because

6 before ECMAS came along, there was really nobody

7 in -- no organization in town to try to help people

8 or deal with people having any kind of divorce

9 problem.

10 Once ECMAS arose, it no longer made very good

11 sense for an organization that was focused

12 specifically on gender equality to deal with this

13 much more specialized set of problems having to do

14 with divorce and separation. In theory, the two

15 organizations could have gone on each dealing with

16 those problems, but when you have little volunteer

17 groups, it is counterproductive to compete with

18 each other for resources. Better to divide,

19 separate the work between you, and that was the

20 most obvious way to do it.

21 Q And so when this agreement was reached in or about

22 1995 or 1996, had both ECMAS and MERGE been dealing

23 with the same issues for some time?

24 A The same issues being?

25 Q Being the entire --

26 A Divorce?

27 Q Yes.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00115

1 A Divorce-type issues? MERGE hadn't been doing much

2 with it. It's a bit complicated by the fact that

3 there was a precursor organization to ECMAS, and it

4 was not incorporated with the province, and I have

5 less knowledge of what they were doing. We had

6 some contact, but they were just growing and

7 getting started, and I'm not -- I don't have an

8 awfully good memory of all that they were doing,

9 but, in any case, sometime before that agreement,

10 they were -- they were doing their work with

11 divorce-type problems. That's about as much as I

12 can say.

13 Q The precursor organization, was that CAPE?

14 A No. No. They had a name that had "Men" in it, and

15 they eventually decided they wanted to be gender

16 inclusive, so they changed their name, and I can't

17 even remember that name. They were really small at

18 that stage. They had no real publicity. Well, not

19 much publicity.

20 It's hard for me to give a very clear answer

21 to what you're saying because of the time lapse and

22 so on.

23 Q So just to complete the context for me before

24 getting back to the pleading. After the agreement

25 in 1995 or 1996, if someone came to ECMAS with an

26 issue that dealt specifically with access,

27 maintenance, custody, or some other divorce-related

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00116

1 issue, would they be sent to MERGE?

2 A No, no, not really. That was their territory.

3 Q That was ECMAS's territory?

4 A That's right.

5 Q And who would be sent to MERGE, only those that had

6 been falsely accused of sexually abusing children?

7 A Or had some other kind of family abuse problem or

8 issue.

9 Q And was there anything reflected in the minutes of

10 meetings or the bylaws that would evidence this

11 agreement?

12 A I don't believe so. These organizations, as I

13 mentioned before, are quite informal. They don't

14 have a lot of talent, a lot of ability to do things

15 formally, and so on, and so I'm quite sure that

16 nothing like that was written on that.

17 Q I'm interested in the process, and again I'll

18 specifically ask you to think of the time period

19 following the agreement. If a parent came to ECMAS

20 and had issues involving family violence, who would

21 determine that and direct them to go to MERGE

22 instead of stay at ECMAS?

23 A It would generally be either Caroline Van Ee or

24 Brian St. Germain, or as more often than not,

25 because by that stage I was going to nearly all the

26 ECMAS meetings, I would pick up on them and just

27 talk to them myself.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00117

1 Q Did the agreement specifically contemplate that

2 people with family violence issues would not be

3 welcome at ECMAS?

4 A Certainly not, because most of the people coming in

5 that situation had both kinds of issues.

6 Q And so --

7 A Divorce, custody, and so on.

8 Q -- these weren't discrete problems?

9 A That's why we had to make an agreement is that they

10 were -- they were very often together. I've used

11 the phrase -- well, these days I'm calling it

12 Divorce 21st Century Style. You want to grab the

13 kids and the house and get all sorts of advantages

14 for the divorce and separation, and you make

15 accusations of -- child sex abuse was the big one

16 back around the turn of the 1990s, and -- but by

17 the middle of the 1990s, spouse abuse was the big

18 issue and continues to be so today.

19 A further thought I've just had, I recall

20 specifically that Brian St. Germain had a special

21 interest in family violence issues, and he would

22 sometimes come to MERGE meetings where we were

23 dealing with that problem.

24 Q I see. And so was it the case that people that

25 came to ECMAS for help that had a family violence

26 allegation component would be referred to MERGE and

27 might attend meetings in both organizations?

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00118

1 A Attending meetings at both was quite common.

2 Q Right.

3 A Is quite common.

4 Q Now, getting back to 15(b), would you put this

5 statement in the irrelevant category, or would you

6 say that it is incomplete and misleading, or both?

7 A It certainly seems relevant. Incomplete and

8 potentially misleading is how I would prefer to put

9 it.

10 Q All right. And what makes this incomplete? Is it

11 the information that you've just given to me about

12 the relationship between ECMAS and MERGE?

13 A That's what I had in mind, yes.

14 Q Yes. Anything else that makes this incomplete?

15 A Not that I can see at the moment.

16 Q All right. When you respond in that fashion, not

17 that you can see at the moment, I'm compelled to

18 say I would like an undertaking that would oblige

19 you to advise me through your lawyer if something

20 occurs to you at a later date between now and

21 trial. Will you give me that undertaking?

22 A Surely. I understand your constraints, and I hope

23 you understand, as a philosopher trained in

24 caution, I sometimes may be overly cautious.

25 Q Well, no, I'm sure your counsel has encouraged you

26 to be cautious, and that's appropriate in this

27 setting.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00119

1 UNDERTAKING NO. 12:

2 ADVISE OF ANY OTHER REASONS DR. CHRISTENSEN

3 BELIEVES PARAGRAPH 15(B) IN THE STATEMENT OF

4 DEFENSE IS INCOMPLETE AND POTENTIALLY MISLEADING.

5 Q MR. KOZAK: Now, I'd like you to turn to

6 15(c):

7 "Christensen has been involved with

8 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS."

9 I'm sure that you will confirm that that is true.

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is it relevant to the words complained of?

12 A It surely is relevant.

13 Q Is it incomplete and misleading in some fashion?

14 A Not misleading. It's not -- it doesn't say very

15 much, but not incomplete in any material sense, I

16 wouldn't say.

17 Q All right. The next statement:

18 "Christensen has attended support

19 group meetings of the Edmonton

20 chapter of ECMAS."

21 That is true, I assume.

22 A It is true.

23 Q Is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

24 A It is not.

25 Q Is it incomplete or misleading?

26 A No. Again, it says very little, but it's not

27 incomplete in any material way.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00120

1 Q 15(e) reads:

2 "On March 25th, 2001, the Edmonton

3 chapter of ECMAS considered a motion

4 to suspend Christensen from the

5 group for three months to

6 investigate whether Christensen's

7 views conflicted with the guiding

8 principles and policies of ECMAS."

9 Is that true?

10 A It is true.

11 Q Is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

12 A No, it is definitely relevant.

13 Q And is it incomplete and misleading?

14 A Well, it's not misleading. It's, again, incomplete

15 in the sense of not telling all of the -- all of

16 the facts that are important but not in a way that

17 I would say would make it misleading.

18 Q All right. 15(f) reads:

19 "Christensen has written and

20 published a book titled Pornography,

21 The Other Side."

22 That is true, is it not?

23 A It is true.

24 Q And is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

25 A Certainly not. It is relevant.

26 Q Is it incomplete and misleading, that statement?

27 A It is not.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00121

1 Q 15(g):

2 "In his book, Pornography, The Other

3 Side, Christensen included a section

4 titled 'Sex and Young People.' A

5 copy of this section is attached as

6 Schedule A to this Statement of

7 Defense, and the Defendants will

8 rely on this section in its

9 entirety."

10 Is that statement true?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

13 A It is not.

14 Q Is it incomplete and misleading?

15 A It is not.

16 Q 15(h):

17 "Louise Malenfant is a community

18 activist who has been involved with

19 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS."

20 Is that true?

21 A It is true.

22 Q Is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

23 A It is not.

24 Q Is it incomplete and misleading?

25 A Not misleading, and incomplete only in the sense of

26 saying so very little that is important; but, no,

27 not misleading.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00122

1 Q All right. 15(i):

2 "Louise Malenfant accepted an

3 invitation from Christensen to move

4 from Winnipeg to Edmonton to work

5 with divorced parents."

6 Is that true?

7 A It's ambiguous in a way that's potentially

8 misleading.

9 Q Can you explain how?

10 A Yes. Specifically, what I invited her to come to

11 Edmonton to do was to research and write up the

12 stories of individuals who had problems dealing

13 with family abuse, and the phrase "work with" is

14 somewhat problematic because it might suggest

15 things that I did not bring her here to do and

16 which might be relevant to issues that would arise.

17 Specifically, she was to research their stories,

18 get their documents, talk to them, and then write

19 that information up for use in potentially helping

20 them farther down the road with abuse -- it's

21 usually accusations of some kind or other, but it

22 wasn't specifically to do with divorced parents,

23 although that's usually the case, but certainly it

24 wasn't to do with divorce per se. It had to do

25 with the accusations.

26 Q So issues that you would say following the

27 agreement in 1995 or 1996 would have more to do

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00123

1 with people who were going to MERGE as opposed to

2 ECMAS?

3 A Exactly right, but, again, keeping in mind that

4 most of them were going to both.

5 Q Yes. And in fairness, Dr. Christensen, you would

6 agree that the phrase "work with divorced parents"

7 is general enough to include the fact that she

8 would be interacting with them and capturing their

9 story and committing it to writing?

10 A It is. It is general enough, yes.

11 Q And your answer to my question, that is, it's

12 somewhat misleading I gather in your mind because

13 your invitation to her was for a more specific

14 purpose than what's suggested in 15(i)?

15 A Not just more specific, but more specifically the

16 work that MERGE was doing as opposed to the work

17 that ECMAS was doing, even again granting that they

18 overlap, and, as we've said.

19 Q Now, is there some document, whether it's an

20 agreement, or a contract, or an exchange of emails,

21 that would illustrate the more limited nature of

22 your invitation to Louise Malenfant?

23 A Unfortunately, there is no such record. It was all

24 done by telephone, or virtually all done by

25 telephone, and such emails as there were, I did not

26 keep. Had I known what would eventually happen, I

27 certainly would have kept all those records, but

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00124

1 the records that I have of my dealings with

2 Ms. Malenfant that I've kept on email don't begin

3 until about the time that she actually got to

4 Edmonton.

5 Q All right. Now --

6 A If I can follow up?

7 Q Sure.

8 A Probably a lot of those records would have

9 references that would help answer the question, but

10 the actual original agreement, we -- I guess

11 because we were -- at that time we saw each other

12 as workers in a common cause, we trusted each other

13 in ways that ceased later on, but we certainly did

14 not bother with anything like a written contract at

15 that -- at that earlier point.

16 Q I was just about to ask you about that. So there

17 was no written contract. This topic may have been

18 covered in emails that are no longer available to

19 you?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Are you absolutely certain that the invitation, as

22 it's described in 15(i), was specifically confined,

23 to you, to working with people who would go to

24 MERGE on family violence issues?

25 A About as certain as I can be. It's not as if I

26 thought about it in terms of sharp dividing lines

27 at that point.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00125

1 Q Yes.

2 A And don't usually think in terms of sharp dividing

3 lines, but certainly the idea was to deal with

4 people who specifically had problems with police

5 and with Child Welfare because of the kinds of

6 accusations, sometimes true even, of dealing with

7 these issues. It's not as if I would have said:

8 Oh, of course, if any kind of other issues arise,

9 we won't touch that at all. That didn't come up.

10 But certainly that was my reason for doing it.

11 Q You would agree that parents who have issues with

12 police authorities and Child Welfare authorities

13 have a broad range of problems that aren't

14 necessarily confined to family violence?

15 A That I've said already. Many of them are in

16 divorce situations, separation. The two are very

17 much linked.

18 Q Would you agree that it wouldn't have been

19 unreasonable for Louise Malenfant to think that

20 your invitation was a more general one than the one

21 that you intended to create?

22 A It would have been unlikely for her to think that,

23 because her own work in Winnipeg was always

24 specifically with the falsely accused. She dealt

25 very specifically with people falsely accused or

26 claiming to be falsely accused of child sex abuse,

27 so it would have been odd for her to think in more

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00126

1 general terms, I would think.

2 Q Right. 15(j) reads:

3 "Christensen paid Louise Malenfant a

4 salary."

5 Is that true?

6 A Yes. Well, it's true enough, I guess. It was -- I

7 paid her a -- it was not an hourly salary or

8 anything like that. It was a set amount per month,

9 so it was more on a contract basis. For example,

10 if people think of salary normally, they would

11 think of having benefits and this sort of thing.

12 Louise simply wanted it on a contract basis, so

13 there would be no EI, no benefits. I would just

14 give her $2,000 per month.

15 Q You weren't her employer, but you paid her on a

16 monthly basis?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Was it, in fact, $2,000 per month?

19 A That's what it was.

20 Q Was that agreement to pay her $2,000 a month ever

21 reduced to writing?

22 A Well, I certainly have records of the payments.

23 Q Yes.

24 A But as I say, initially we were quite informal, and

25 there was no actual contract to that effect.

26 Q What I'm getting at is, I was wondering whether

27 something in writing exists to outline the

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00127

1 boundaries of her duties and responsibilities and

2 her expected role that might relate back to the

3 scope of your invitation to her?

4 A It's possible that emails from the period would

5 allude to these things in ways that would help, but

6 nothing really besides, I'm sure, would exist on

7 the matter.

8 Q Those emails that you're referring to, are those

9 emails that are no longer available to you or ones

10 that you have provided through your legal counsel?

11 A I have not provided them. They are available to

12 me.

13 Q Yes.

14 A When I began having conflicts with Louise, I began

15 saving all the emails, and -- but I have not

16 provided them in this case feeling that they're not

17 relevant to the case, in my mind relevance being to

18 what Donna knew and when she knew it, and so, yes,

19 they're available; but, no, I have not provided

20 them.

21 Q Right. I'm going to ask you, subject to anything

22 that your legal counsel says once he's able to

23 review those emails, I'm going to ask you to

24 undertake to provide those emails through your

25 lawyer.

26 MR. BROWN: Sure.

27 MR. KOZAK: All right. Thank you.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00128

1 A Could that be made subject to relevance?

2 MR. BROWN: I'll review them. I'll review

3 them for relevance, and, you know, I mean, if

4 there's nothing in there relating to what you've

5 been just asking about, then, you know, there's no

6 point.

7 A I want to be cooperative. The mountains of

8 documents in this case, I am worried about drowning

9 in irrelevant material.

10 Q MR. KOZAK: I understand your concern,

11 because I am sure you feel that this case has

12 dragged on far too long as it is, and the concern

13 obviously relates to getting into an examination of

14 things that you think are not directly related to

15 the things complained of. However, in my view,

16 because of the nature of the allegations that have

17 been made, there's actually a fairly wide ambit of

18 relevance, and that's something that your lawyer

19 will review, but in order to do that, I'm going to

20 ask you to undertake to provide any email or other

21 correspondence between you and Louise Malenfant so

22 that he can review it and advise us of his position

23 on the relevance to the issues in the lawsuit.

24 A I will do that.

25 Q Thank you.

26 UNDERTAKING NO. 13:

27 PROVIDE COPIES OF EMAILS THAT WOULD OUTLINE THE

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00129

1 BOUNDARIES OF MS. MALENFANT'S DUTIES AND

2 RESPONSIBILITIES AND HER EXPECTED ROLE THAT MIGHT

3 RELATE BACK TO THE SCOPE OF DR. CHRISTENSEN'S

4 INVITATION TO HER.

5 Q MR. KOZAK: And, can you tell me the

6 period of time for which you paid Louise Malenfant

7 this $2,000 per month?

8 A It was the three months of September, October and

9 November of the year 2000. There was some talk of

10 a fourth month, but that didn't materialize because

11 of the conflicts between us.

12 Q So your initial agreement didn't have a term?

13 A It had a three-month, possibly four-month term.

14 Q I see.

15 A And it may be helpful to add that because

16 originally this looked like a very promising

17 arrangement, my agreement was to, if things worked

18 out well, to attempt to get funding so I could

19 continue to pay her on beyond that period,

20 indefinitely. This was all in the realm of

21 possibility as originally discussed with

22 Ms. Malenfant.

23 Q Now, the $2,000 that you did pay over the course of

24 each of three months, was that money that you

25 personally paid her?

26 A That's correct.

27 Q Were you reimbursed by anyone for that money that

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00130

1 you paid to her?

2 A No.

3 Q And the funding that you hoped to arrange, who

4 would that funding have come from?

5 A Some government agency perhaps, or some foundation

6 perhaps. It was all speculative, but there are --

7 there are sources of that kind that I wanted to

8 look into, but that did not materialize.

9 Q When you say "that did not materialize," did you

10 take any steps to look into the possibility and it

11 didn't come to fruition, or is it the case that you

12 didn't take any steps?

13 A I took the steps of looking at some of the

14 available sources of such funding, but at that

15 point the conflict between me and Ms. Malenfant was

16 such that I gave up on it.

17 Q 15(k) reads:

18 "[Tim] Adams was disbarred by the

19 Law Society Alberta and pled guilty

20 to the indictable criminal offense

21 of sexual exploitation of a minor."

22 Is that true?

23 A As I understand it, that's true.

24 Q And is any part of that irrelevant to the words

25 complained of?

26 A No.

27 Q And is any part of that incomplete and misleading?

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00131

1 A No.

2 Q 15(l) reads:

3 "[Tim] Adams has been involved with

4 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS and

5 attended support group meetings of

6 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS."

7 Is that true?

8 A It's true.

9 Q Is any part of that irrelevant to the words

10 complained of?

11 A It is not.

12 Q And is any part of that statement incomplete and

13 misleading?

14 A It is not.

15 Q 15(m) reads:

16 "On March 12th, 2001, the Edmonton

17 chapter of ECMAS elected [Tim] Adams

18 as vice president."

19 Is that true?

20 A That is true.

21 Q Is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

22 A It is not.

23 Q Is any part of that incomplete and misleading?

24 A It is not. Of course, there's a great story to be

25 told there that is relevant, but this statement is

26 not problematic.

27 Q Thank you. 15(n) reads:

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00132

1 "On March 25th, 2001, the Edmonton

2 chapter of ECMAS voted to accept the

3 resignation of [Tim] Adams from the

4 position of vice president."

5 Is that true?

6 A It is true.

7 Q Is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

8 A It is not.

9 Q Is any part of it incomplete and misleading?

10 A It is not.

11 Q 15(o) reads:

12 "On March 25th, 2001, the Edmonton

13 chapter of ECMAS voted down a motion

14 to eject [Tim] Adams from the group."

15 Is that true?

16 A It is true.

17 Q Is it irrelevant to the words complained of?

18 A It is not.

19 Q Is any part of it incomplete and misleading?

20 A It is not.

21 Q 15(p), the following words appear:

22 "In late March 2001, the Board of

23 Directors of the Calgary chapter of

24 ECMAS resigned and disassociated

25 itself from the ECMAS trade name."

26 Is that true?

27 A It is true, as I understand it.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00133

1 Q Is that statement irrelevant to the words

2 complained of?

3 A It is not.

4 Q And is any part of that incomplete and misleading?

5 A It is not. Again, there's much more story here to

6 this, but, in itself, it's not a problematic

7 statement.

8 Q 15(q) reads:

9 "The Edmonton chapter of ECMAS

10 support group meetings begin with a

11 disclaimer that the group is not

12 offering legal advice."

13 Is that true?

14 A It is problematic, and I could explain what I mean

15 by that.

16 Q All right. Please do.

17 A The phrase "legal advice" is something of a term of

18 art. In the words that I would use, what the group

19 is told is that they're not being given any

20 professional advice.

21 Q Okay.

22 A But, now, if the phrase -- if you use the phrase

23 "legal advice" as I believe it sometimes is used,

24 it's something that only lawyer can give, and the

25 very point of this disclaimer given to the

26 attendees is that we're not pretending to give that

27 kind of information or of anything professional.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00134

1 It is -- it is very important here though

2 that the -- what the group did primarily was to

3 give "legal advice" in the sense of lay people gave

4 information in the same sense, if I may, that

5 neighbors sometimes give each other medical advice:

6 Oh, I took -- you know, why don't you take this

7 medicine, it helped me. But, if you understand,

8 the neighbors are not pretending to be medical

9 doctors, they're just doing it as lay people, so in

10 a sense, an important sense, it is medical advice,

11 but in the sense of being official or pretending to

12 be professional, it is not, and I think this

13 important -- this distinction is certainly material

14 to the issues at stake here. I hope that helps.

15 Q Yes, I understand. A well-intentioned stranger

16 that tells you not to cross the street in the

17 middle of the block may or may not be giving you

18 legal advice regardless of whether they're a

19 lawyer. Is that your point?

20 A Pretty well; but, again, I do understand that the

21 phrase "legal advice" has a quite special

22 resonance, if not a very special definition.

23 Q But, Dr. Christensen, you would agree that meetings

24 of the Edmonton chapter of the ECMAS support group

25 commenced with some statement to make it clear that

26 people weren't being offered legal advice in the

27 sense that the term of art refers to, that it

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00135

1 wasn't professional legal advice, but it was advice

2 relating to legal matters from a nonprofessional

3 source?

4 A Lay advice, exactly. The term "professional" is

5 used repeatedly in that disclaimer, and I think

6 that's the key word here. Lay legal advice is a

7 good way I could put it, although we've tried to

8 stress the fact that this is just from our lay

9 experience.

10 Q No, I think I understand the point; but subject to

11 that qualification, do you agree that 15(q) is

12 true?

13 A Subject to that qualification, yes, 15(q) is true.

14 Q Is that statement relevant to the words complained

15 of?

16 A I believe it is very relevant.

17 Q Other than the qualification that you have just

18 given us, is that statement incomplete and

19 misleading?

20 A The qualification I've given, I think, is the only

21 -- the only -- might make it misleading.

22 Q All right. If you could turn the page, 15(r)

23 reads:

24 "[Tim] Adams has handed out business

25 cards at support group meetings of

26 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS. The

27 business cards of [Tim] Adams

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00136

1 included the designation LL.B."

2 Is that true?

3 A It is not known to me to be true because, in my

4 memory, I never got one of his cards, and so I

5 wouldn't know whether the designation LL.B. was on

6 there, but I certainly understand this statement to

7 be true.

8 There is a little bit of a problem, and I

9 don't mean to be picking nits here, but it says he

10 handed out his business cards at support group

11 meetings. To my -- I don't believe I ever saw him

12 hand out a business card at the meeting, though he

13 probably did after the meetings were over, and I

14 certainly saw other people hand out his card at the

15 meetings, so this is a bit nitpicking, but the way

16 this could be misleading is in giving the

17 impression that he was doing this constantly, that

18 it was an important part of the meeting as opposed

19 to something that occasionally happened after the

20 meeting.

21 Q Yes.

22 A If you can see the distinction I'm making, then

23 you'll understand why I'm a bit hesitant to endorse

24 this just as it stands.

25 Q Yes. So if I can summarize then. You have no

26 personal knowledge of the truth of the statement

27 made in 15(r), although you have no reason to

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00137

1 believe that it's false; is that fair?

2 A Well, again, as it stands, it's . . .

3 Q Perhaps I'll just complete my summary. You have no

4 reason to believe that it's false, but it may be

5 misleading if it conveys the impression that

6 [Tim] Adams had, as his primarily function, handing

7 out business cards at meetings?

8 A Well, that's closer. I was there at all the

9 meetings. I do not remember at any time seeing him

10 hand his card out during the meeting. In fact, I

11 don't even remember him -- seeing his -- giving his

12 card out after a meeting was over, but then he was

13 talking to people individually, and it certainly

14 would have happened, I would think.

15 Q All right.

16 A Does that help?

17 Q Did you ever have occasion to see one of

18 [Tim] Adams' business cards?

19 A I don't remember seeing -- looking at it close.

20 Not until this whole affair exploded did I pay much

21 attention to the idea of a business card.

22 Q So you can't personally say whether or not his

23 business cards at that time included a designation

24 LL.B.?

25 A I cannot personally say that.

26 Q Okay. Now, with respect to this statement, you've

27 summarized one aspect of it that you think might be

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00138

1 misleading. Is there something else that you would

2 say is either incomplete, or misleading, or both?

3 A I think I've covered it. I could possibly repeat,

4 just to be sure, but -- and, if I may, I'll do

5 that. I had personal knowledge of what was

6 happening in those meetings because I was there at

7 every one, and I have no memory of ever seeing him

8 pass out his business card, although on a few

9 occasions others would pass out his business card,

10 and so I think it is a -- though I'm sure that he

11 would have given his card to people, I believe it

12 would have been after the meetings and not terribly

13 often. I think that covers my concerns however we

14 may wind up summarizing it.

15 Q Well, I accept the fact that you're trying to be as

16 complete as possible in your answer, but I want to

17 clarify one thing. You attended each and every

18 meeting, but you couldn't say with certainty that

19 [Tim] Adams did not hand out his business card at

20 the meeting?

21 A I certainly cannot say that. I would expect the

22 opposite to be true.

23 Q And I take it from our discussion about 15(r) that

24 you would agree that 15(r) is relevant to the words

25 complained of?

26 A Certainly relevant.

27 Q 15(s) reads:

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00139

1 "[Tim] Adams has obtained clients for

2 his paralegal business, 'affordable

3 paralegal services,' who are persons

4 involved with ECMAS."

5 Is that true?

6 A It is true.

7 Q Is it relevant to the words complained of?

8 A It is relevant.

9 Q Is some part of that misleading and incomplete?

10 A It is not.

11 Q This is obviously something that you do have

12 personal knowledge of, given the unequivocal

13 response to my questions. Who were the clients

14 that you can recall that [Tim] Adams obtained for

15 his paralegal business who were involved with

16 ECMAS?

17 A Are you asking for their names?

18 Q Yes.

19 A I, at this date, couldn't give you very many.

20 MR. BROWN: Can we do that by way of

21 undertaking, give our best efforts to --

22 MR. KOZAK: Yes. Yes. That's

23 satisfactory.

24 A That would be better.

25 MR. BROWN: It would more likely give you

26 an answer that you, you know, could use than if he

27 tries to remember right now.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00140

1 MR. KOZAK: That would be satisfactory.

2 Q MR. KOZAK: So, Dr. Christensen, I'll ask

3 you to undertake to provide us with a list of the

4 clients that [Tim] Adams obtained for his paralegal

5 business who were persons involved with ECMAS, and

6 supply us with that information through your legal

7 counsel. Will you give me that undertaking?

8 A May I clarify that?

9 Q Yes.

10 A Are you expecting me to confer with [Tim] Adams to

11 get this information or simply to go from my own

12 memory?

13 Q I would like you to do both. I would like you to

14 rely on whatever resources are available to you,

15 that is, documents that you have either produced or

16 are going to produce to your legal counsel, and, if

17 necessary, calling [Tim] Adams to ask him.

18 MR. BROWN: [Tim] may have objections based

19 on confidentiality, but, you know, if he's prepared

20 to provide them, we'll ask.

21 MR. KOZAK: Yes.

22 A If I may, there may be further complications

23 because it's germane to the case whether he got

24 these clients from ECMAS. This simply says

25 "involved with ECMAS." I do recall very clearly

26 that quite a few of the people who originally just

27 came to him were referred by him to ECMAS for the

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00141

1 first time, so he did not get those clients by

2 his -- from his involvement with ECMAS, but rather

3 it was the reverse.

4 Q MR. KOZAK: Yes.

5 A There's a germane distinction, I think, and it may

6 impact on what you're asking here.

7 Q I would have to agree with that distinction. I

8 think that what I'm interested in are clients that

9 [Tim] Adams obtained because of their involvement

10 with ECMAS, not the other way around.

11 A That helps, and that I understand. I will

12 undertake to do that.

13 Q You'll produce those to your lawyer, and your

14 lawyer can then decide whether or not there is some

15 issue of confidentiality, and advise us of the

16 position with respect to that.

17 Now, I'm not suggesting that the issue of

18 confidentiality solely relates to the issue of

19 solicitor/client privilege, but I will advise you

20 that I think at the time in question, Mr. Adams was

21 not a barrister and solicitor, and, therefore,

22 solicitor/client privilege wouldn't apply. I'll

23 leave it to you to determine whether or not there's

24 some other confidentiality issue, and, if so, you

25 can tell me what it is.

26 MR. BROWN: Sure.

27

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00142

1 UNDERTAKING NO. 14:

2 PROVIDE TO PLAINTIFF'S COUNSEL THE NAMES OF

3 CLIENTS THAT [TIM] ADAMS OBTAINED BECAUSE OF THEIR

4 INVOLVEMENT WITH ECMAS. ADVISE WHETHER THERE IS

5 AN ISSUE OF CONFIDENTIALITY; IF SO, PROVIDE THE

6 PLAINTIFF'S POSITION WITH RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE.

7 Q MR. KOZAK: 15(t) reads:

8 "Christensen has recommended to some

9 members of ECMAS on a number of

10 occasions that they retain

11 [Tim] Adams to provide counsel with

12 regard to family law matters in

13 place of their existing legal

14 counsel."

15 Now, that is a statement that in your Reply you

16 indicated was not accurate. What is your position,

17 Dr. Christensen?

18 A All right. Let's see if I can make it succinct and

19 yet clear. I think that the important distinction

20 here is that I did not recommend that they retain

21 him. I recommended that they go to him and talk to

22 him about that as an option. I think that is an

23 important distinction.

24 Secondly, because of what I take are obvious

25 issues here, in place of their existing legal

26 counsel, I want it to be very clear that I never

27 recommended to anybody to fire their existing

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00143

1 counsel. This is a -- a very large issue has been

2 made of this, and I take strong exception to it, so

3 there was no recommendation that they leave their

4 existing counsel. Generally, the people I sent to

5 [Tim] did not have counsel. There certainly may

6 have been some who did. My memory -- I don't want

7 to claim perfect memory in that regard, but,

8 generally speaking, if people had existing counsel,

9 that settled the answer for me. I would not have

10 -- I believe I would not have sent anyone to him

11 suggesting that they replace their counsel, unless

12 they had indicated to me that they already intended

13 to leave their current counsel. I think this is a

14 very important distinction.

15 Q Well, I just want to explore that because you've

16 been very candid in saying: I believe that I did

17 not send anybody to [Tim] Adams. That, of course,

18 leaves open the possibility that it did occur, and

19 you can't presently recollect it.

20 A That's right.

21 Q But it's not uncommon, I think you would agree, for

22 people to complain about their lawyers or the legal

23 system. Is that accurate?

24 A It's especially common at our support group

25 meetings, yes.

26 Q Right. And you drew a distinction between what is

27 said in 15(t), that is, that you recommended to

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00144

1 some members of ECMAS on a number of occasions that

2 they retain [Tim] Adams. The distinction you made

3 was you would have described it as suggesting or

4 recommending that they talk to him about options.

5 Is that fair?

6 A Yes. Among the options being retaining him, yes.

7 Q Yes, and would it be fair to say that in instances

8 where people were complaining about their lawyers

9 within the context of an ECMAS meeting, you would

10 offer that as an option to them as well, that is:

11 Why don't you talk to [Tim] Adams?

12 A I guess I'd have to say it would have to be more

13 than just complaining.

14 Q Yes.

15 A Expressing a definite desire to leave their current

16 counsel I think would be -- because people

17 obviously complain about all sorts of little things

18 which are quite curable.

19 Q Yes.

20 A So the word "complaining" might be misleading; but

21 if a person said: I really feel I have to replace

22 my counsel, then certainly an option that I would

23 on some occasions have presented was the option of

24 getting [Tim] Adams or some other paralegal to help

25 them represent themselves. I think it may be

26 helpful in this context to say that we talk a lot

27 about self-representation in the group.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00145

1 Q Yes.

2 A Because so many of our people feel that they can't

3 afford it to go on these constant battles, and so I

4 have often mentioned quite specifically the three

5 options: You can represent yourself, and the court

6 makes this easier for people these days by

7 providing information packages that tell you how to

8 fill out the forms and so on. You can represent

9 yourself. You can go the usual route and have

10 legal counsel, or you can take this middle ground,

11 which a lot of people would need because they don't

12 really have the full abilities just to represent

13 themselves, middle ground being to hire a lawyer or

14 a paralegal to give you the information to help you

15 to represent yourself, to help you fill out those

16 perplexing legal forms, and so on, and so on.

17 So I, for a long time, have been very explicit

18 in talking to people about these three options, and

19 so that if they feel that they cannot afford a

20 lawyer anymore, and they're really strongly

21 thinking about doing something else, then I would

22 present the option of possibly hiring [Tim] Adams or

23 someone else to help them to represent themselves.

24 I hope that detail helps.

25 Q It does. Those are the three options that you

26 would have spoken to ECMAS members about at the

27 relevant time frame relating to the article

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00146

1 complained of; is that correct?

2 A Yes, ECMAS "visitors," I think, is better than

3 "members."

4 Q That third option, which is not self-representation

5 and not retaining on a formal basis a lawyer to

6 represent you in court, you said [Tim] Adams would

7 fall into the third option category?

8 A Right.

9 Q And your answer included having a paralegal or a

10 lawyer "help you with those perplexing forms." Was

11 there ever a person other than [Tim] Adams whose

12 name you gave to people in this third option?

13 A If it will come to me, there's one lawyer I knew

14 would do things in this way. I imagine many

15 lawyers will not just help people represent

16 themselves, but there is one, in particular, that I

17 knew had done so, if I can think of her name. Her

18 name may come to me later. I could find out, if

19 it's really important. I remember specifically

20 suggesting to people that they could talk to her

21 about getting help to represent themselves, because

22 this lawyer had done the same thing at one point

23 for Abdulahi Mahamad, who is one of our ECMAS and

24 MERGE members.

25 Q All right.

26 A I probably would not have recommended anyone else

27 because I'm not aware of -- I don't know much about

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00147

1 other paralegals, but I certainly would have

2 suggested that people ask lawyers, maybe the lawyer

3 they presently have, about this third option which

4 could save them a lot of money.

5 Q I will ask you to undertake to provide me with the

6 name of the lawyer whose name escapes you right

7 now. Will you give me that undertaking?

8 A I will.

9 UNDERTAKING NO. 15:

10 PROVIDE THE NAME OF THE FEMALE LAWYER THAT

11 DR. CHRISTENSEN RECOMMENDED TO VISITORS TO ECMAS.

12 (ANSWERED ON PAGE 148)

13 Q MR. KOZAK: I want to just follow up on a

14 few things that you said though, and you said that

15 you have a specific recollection of providing her

16 name. Do you know who you provided it to.

17 A No, at this date. I'm very certain that I did

18 provide her name on a couple of occasions just

19 because I knew that she would do this kind of

20 service.

21 Q Right. Now, we've spent some time talking about

22 the position of words, and I just want to get a

23 sense of how many is a couple? Is that two?

24 A That's two, but it reflects the uncertainty in my

25 memory. I have a very strong memory of having

26 mentioned her in this connection, and it seems to

27 me that it was more than once, but it wouldn't have

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00148

1 been a great number of times.

2 Q That's helpful.

3 A It would be a best guess.

4 Q Now, did this female lawyer ever attend meetings of

5 ECMAS?

6 A No.

7 Q All right. So she wouldn't have been --

8 A The name has come back to me.

9 Q Yes.

10 A Deborah Baradziej.

11 Q And do you know how her surname is spelled?

12 A I've always gotten it wrong, B-A-R-A-D-J-I-E-Z, I

13 believe, unless it's Z-I-E-J on the end. You don't

14 know her name, I take it?

15 Q I don't, but that's not surprising. I've never

16 practiced matrimonial law.

17 A She did what I felt to be a very good job of

18 organizing legal materials for Abdulahi so he could

19 go into court and plead his own case. I was very

20 impressed with it, and that's why I suggested her

21 to other people. Though I can't remember to whom,

22 I certainly remember doing it and doing it more

23 than once.

24 Q Would you agree that in terms of this third option,

25 that's what I'll call it, for visitors to ECMAS,

26 that you more frequently referred them to

27 [Tim] Adams than to Ms., and I've forgotten --

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00149

1 A Baradziej.

2 Q Baradziej.

3 A Yes, I definitely did that more frequently.

4 Q Why was that?

5 A I have -- and I should put this on the record. I

6 have a lot of respect for [Tim] Adams. Through many

7 meetings, I was impressed with the sensible answers

8 that I heard him give to people when they were

9 asking for information, not always legal

10 information, just good, sound, practical, every-day

11 advice. And I had a lot of and do have a lot of

12 confidence in his abilities, and because, in

13 particular, I feel that he is especially aware of

14 the kinds of problems that people facing divorce

15 and separation go through, I have been very quick

16 to recommend him many times.

17 Q All right. So I'm going to try to pin you down

18 again. I did it with the "couple" of referrals to

19 Ms. Baradziej.

20 A M-hm.

21 Q You've said "many times" with [Tim] Adams. Can you

22 say, was it dozens?

23 A Dozens, yes. Keeping in mind that when I sent

24 people to [Tim] Adams, it was to explore various

25 options.

26 Q Yes.

27 A And I could add, most of the time I sent people to

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00150

1 [Tim] Adams it was simply to get some free legal

2 information on some specific point that I couldn't

3 answer.

4 Q All right. Now, was there a time frame when you

5 ceased referring people to Ms. Baradziej and

6 started referring them to Mr. Adams? Was there a

7 sequence?

8 A No, no, I can't remember anything of that nature.

9 Chances are that when I mentioned her name, I also

10 mentioned his and said: Try them both.

11 Q But that would have only happened on those two

12 occasions, or three perhaps?

13 A Right.

14 Q Is that fair?

15 A That's fair to say.

16 Q I assume when you referred people to Ms. Baradziej

17 that she was a barrister and solicitor and a member

18 of the Law Society of Alberta, to the best of your

19 knowledge?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And when you referred people to [Tim] Adams, he was

22 not?

23 A That's correct.

24 Q How careful were you in bringing that distinction

25 to people that you referred visitors of ECMAS to?

26 A In general, I believe I was fairly careful to tell

27 them that [Tim] is a disbarred lawyer. I had to

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00151

1 tell them, generally speaking, that he couldn't

2 represent them because we don't want people go on

3 thinking that.

4 Q Yes.

5 A There were many times when I sent people to him

6 for -- just for information when I didn't mention

7 that kind of thing.

8 Q Yes.

9 A But I'm certainly aware of the distinction, aware

10 that he was not a barrister and solicitor and

11 consequently he could only give this limited kind

12 of service, and that's what I wanted people to know

13 in sending them to him.

14 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)

15 (ADJOURNMENT)

16 Q MR. KOZAK: I had been asking you

17 questions about paragraph 15(t) in the Statement of

18 Defense and Counterclaim, and you had provided me

19 with some clarification. I take it that 15(t), you

20 would agree, is relevant to the words complained

21 of?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Now, in the article itself, there is a quote, and

24 I'll just -- I'll just read it to you. It reads:

25 "He has also suggested, at least

26 eight times, that her nephew fire

27 his lawyer and hire the disbarred

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00152

1 Mr. Adams instead, and he said,

2 'Dump your lawyer, you don't need a

3 lawyer. [Tim] Adams will help you.

4 Just go to [Tim] Adams. Well, you

5 know, I think you'd be really

6 impressed with [Tim] Adams.'"

7 Do you recall that quote, generally, in the

8 article?

9 A I recall the quote from the article, yes.

10 Q Yes. I take it, based on your earlier answer, that

11 you deny speaking those words or conveying that

12 specific message?

13 A That specific message, yes, I deny that.

14 Q And do you know who this passage refers to?

15 A You mean which individuals?

16 Q Yes.

17 A Oh, yes, this is -- well, let's see now, it's

18 either [the grandmother] or [the Aunt].

19 Q [first name], I'm sorry, what was that last name?

20 A [last name of grandmother].

21 Q [last name of grandmother], yes.

22 A [last name spelled out].

23 Q The other name you gave me was [aunt's first name]?

24 A [aunt's last name].

25 Q Spelled?

26 A [last name spelled out].

27 Q All right. Now, those were both people who came to

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00153

1 ECMAS?

2 A Yes. They're sisters.

3 Q Oh, all right.

4 A I guess that would have been -- sorry, could you

5 read the quote again? I'll recall which one it was

6 there.

7 Q

8 "He has also suggested, at least

9 eight times, that her nephew --"

10 A Nephew, okay. That will be [the aunt].

11 Q Okay. And so it's the word "nephew" that allows

12 you to identify [the aunt] as the speaker?

13 A That's right. The group is small enough that this

14 was a clear identifier.

15 Q Do you know [the aunt]'s nephew?

16 A I believe I met him on two occasions. The article

17 made it sound as if I had spoken directly to him,

18 but I never did speak to him about such things. I

19 met him just briefly.

20 Q Do you recall his name?

21 A I do not, in fact.

22 Q But you do recall meeting him?

23 A Yes. As I recall, I met him at a public -- an

24 ECMAS public event on one occasion, though that may

25 be incorrect; and I'm quite certain that I met him

26 at the courthouse one day with his mother and aunt,

27 again, just briefly.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00154

1 Q So you met him on two occasions?

2 A That's -- I'm fairly sure of that, but not totally.

3 Q On either of these occasions, do you recall

4 speaking to the nephew?

5 A I believe I spoke to him on both occasions.

6 Q What was the subject matter of your conversation?

7 A Just general getting acquainted sort of

8 information.

9 Q All right. Do you remember anything about that

10 discussion?

11 A Nothing.

12 Q So you don't know what his circumstances were or

13 what his issues were?

14 A Well, I knew something about his circumstances

15 because of having dealt so much with his mother and

16 his aunt. They came to numerous MERGE meetings,

17 and occasionally to ECMAS meetings, and they were

18 always working on his behalf, but he did not come

19 with them. Whether it was for reasons of

20 scheduling or being distressed and not wanting to

21 deal with it, that I couldn't say.

22 Q Do you recall ever having a discussion with the

23 nephew about [Tim] Adams?

24 A I do not recall such a discussion, and I'm quite

25 sure I never had one.

26 Q Right.

27 A With him.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00155

1 Q So, again, I realize this was sometime ago, but you

2 say you're quite sure. That leaves open the

3 possibility that there was a discussion with him

4 about [Tim] Adams?

5 A Certainly the abstract possibility. In case it

6 helps to clarify, a lot of the memory I'm relying

7 on now is what came to me at the time of this whole

8 trouble.

9 Q Yes.

10 A And impressing certain things in my memory then,

11 but, of course, there has been further memory loss

12 and fading since that time.

13 Q Yes.

14 A I'm certainly aware of the possibility of memory

15 failing in a person, and so I can't be sure that I

16 didn't speak to him about [Tim] Adams, but I do

17 recall our discussion was so brief that it in all

18 likelihood was just a little getting acquainted:

19 Oh, you're the son they've been talking about; bla,

20 bla, bla.

21 Q And in your conversation with the nephew, was it

22 your impression that he was well familiar with who

23 you were?

24 A That he knew something about how I was trying to

25 help his mother and aunt.

26 Q What was going on at the courthouse?

27 A That I've tried to remember in recalling this, and

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00156

1 I'm just not sure.

2 Q Do you recall if [the aunt]'s nephew was

3 represented by a lawyer on the two occasions when

4 you met him?

5 A That, as I remember it, he was, but the memory is

6 so fuzzy that all I -- but mostly it's probably

7 been influenced by my reading of these transcripts

8 since then, and so -- but my memory, such as it is,

9 is that he had a lawyer that they were not

10 particularly -- they were not particularly happy

11 with going on paying and paying, but the memory is

12 very, very fuzzy.

13 Q Was [the aunt]'s nephew embroiled in some issue

14 that related to family violence or allegations of

15 family violence?

16 A Yes. As I recall in this case, I don't recall

17 whether -- specifically, whether accusations had

18 been made against him, and I have very little

19 specific memory, other than that they were

20 constantly dealing with court and with Child

21 Welfare, trying to get the courts or Child Welfare

22 to recognize that the mother of his child was a

23 very disreputable person harmful to the child.

24 That's the main thing I recall about their case.

25 Beyond that, I'm afraid my memory is too faded at

26 this point.

27 Q I take it that you have no way of finding out, on

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00157

1 the two occasions when you met the nephew, whether

2 he was represented by legal counsel, and, if so,

3 who it was?

4 A Other than by asking the mother or the aunt.

5 Q All right.

6 A No, I'm sure there's no way for me to -- and I'm

7 reasonably sure I never knew.

8 Q Now, switching from conversations that you had with

9 the nephew to conversations that you had with

10 [the aunt], is that the sister of the other

11 person you mentioned, [the grandmother]?

12 A Yes, [the grandmother] was his mother.

13 Q Yes. [the aunt] was the aunt?

14 A The aunt.

15 Q Now, let's talk about conversations that you had

16 with [the aunt] and this passage again.

17 "He has also suggested, at least

18 eight times, that her nephew fire

19 his lawyer and hire the disbarred

20 Mr. Adams instead."

21 Do you remember having conversations with

22 [the aunt] about that?

23 A I had conversations with both of them about talking

24 to [Tim] Adams.

25 Q That's [the aunt] and [the grandmother]?

26 A Right.

27 Q And do you have any reason to believe that her

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00158

1 assertion that it was at least eight times is

2 inaccurate?

3 A I certainly do.

4 Q And why is that?

5 A Well, here again, you understand that one doesn't

6 have specific memories of all conversations. What

7 I do remember is that for a long time they would --

8 they would complain to me about the burden of these

9 ongoing court battles, and when I first became

10 aware that [Tim] Adams could help them and possibly

11 reduce that burden, I believe I phoned him [them] up to

12 tell him [them] about it. Chances -- it's possible I

13 phoned each of them about it.

14 Q Yes.

15 A Again, I have no specific memories here, but

16 it's -- but just sort of a very, very faint memory

17 here. And I have quite a specific memory at a

18 specific meeting at a later time of reminding them

19 and asking them whether they had contacted him,

20 thinking -- being pretty sure that they had not

21 because he hadn't said anything to me about it.

22 And beyond that, I can well imagine that I might

23 have mentioned it once, possibly even twice more,

24 but I cannot -- both in terms of the way I

25 generally do things and such memories as I -- such

26 vague memories that I do have, I cannot imagine

27 having mentioned it more than four times. Three or

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00159

1 four is what I would say.

2 Q Now, I don't want to split hairs, but when I was

3 listening to your best efforts to recollect those

4 distant memories, I counted five, and I thought

5 there was a telephone conversation with

6 [the aunt], a telephone conversation that might

7 have also been placed to [the grandmother], a reminder

8 at a meeting, and then I think you said there may

9 have been a couple of other occasions, so is it

10 possible it was as many as five times?

11 A I don't think so. I think if I said a couple, and

12 then I would -- I would think three or four is

13 about it. I'm about as certain as I can be that I

14 didn't go beyond that. This -- there was -- I was

15 very concerned about them. I worked with them a

16 lot and knew the pain that they were going through,

17 and so naturally I was giving them whatever

18 insights I thought I had to help them.

19 Q Yes.

20 A But it simply is not in my character, quite apart

21 -- and quite apart from -- in fact, I think I would

22 remember it if I had asked them so many times. Not

23 only do I not have any such memory, but it's not in

24 character to keep mentioning it. The point was

25 made, and from then on, there was nothing more to

26 be said.

27 Q But the initial suggestion that you made to them

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00160

1 was in a telephone conversation that you initiated;

2 is that accurate?

3 A Very faintly in my memory, I think that's how it

4 would have -- I had the idea: Well, here's a new

5 idea for them. They've been complaining about

6 this, I'll call them up about this.

7 Q Right.

8 A And I think that's likely how it started.

9 Q Now, you described their complaints as a general

10 thing having to do with this ordeal that they were

11 going through?

12 A M-hm.

13 Q But do you recall if they had a specific complaint

14 about their lawyer, either the quality of legal

15 advice they were getting or perhaps the fact that

16 it was costing so much?

17 A The expense. Here again, my memory may have been

18 affected by the transcripts, but it does seem to me

19 that this was a major concern was the expense. I

20 do not remember specific complaints about their

21 lawyer's service otherwise, other than the general

22 one of not succeeding. But that, of course, is not

23 necessarily a lawyer's fault, so . . .

24 Q Did you ever ask [Tim] Adams if [the aunt] had

25 contacted him?

26 A I have no specific memory. It's likely that I did

27 and that that would be the reason why at this later

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00161

1 meeting I raised the question.

2 Q That you raised the question with [the aunt]

3 again?

4 A Well, they were both at that meeting, I believe,

5 so. . .

6 Q Yes. Do you recall the date of that meeting.

7 A No. I do recall the occasion.

8 Q Where was that?

9 A The home of one of the board members of ECMAS.

10 Q Whose home was that?

11 A Ron Marshall is his name.

12 Q And is that a meeting that was attended by

13 [the aunt], [the grandmother], and [Tim] Adams?

14 A [Tim] Adams would not have been there, no. The two

15 of them, yes.

16 Q In any of your discussions with [the aunt] or

17 [the grandmother] about getting the assistance of

18 [Tim] Adams, did you convey information about

19 [Tim] Adams' background, that is, that he was once a

20 lawyer and was disbarred?

21 A Here again, the memory is so fuzzy that I couldn't

22 be sure of an answer to that. What I am quite sure

23 of, because just for practical reasons, is that I

24 would have talked about the -- I made the point

25 that he would help them to represent themselves,

26 because he couldn't do it. That much at least.

27 But even that is only -- is based on just knowing

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00162

1 what I did, in general, not specific memories of

2 specific conversations.

3 Q So that answer is based on your recollection of

4 what your general practice was and not what

5 happened in this specific instance?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q When you describe it in that fashion, that is: I

8 suggested that they speak to [Tim] Adams because he

9 could help them help themselves, or similar wards,

10 I'm curious, didn't people ever ask you why you

11 couldn't play that role?

12 A Why I couldn't play?

13 Q The same role, helping them to help themselves?

14 A I don't recall whether anyone ever asked that, that

15 is, I don't have a specific recollection. It

16 fuzzily seems to me that I have been asked

17 something along those lines on occasion, but mostly

18 they wouldn't ask because I clearly have no legal

19 background.

20 Q Well, that wouldn't necessarily be clear to them.

21 A That's right.

22 Q And that leads, I guess, to my next question, which

23 is: Given that you were essentially in the same

24 position as [Tim] Adams insofar as you could help

25 people help themselves, acknowledging, of course,

26 that you didn't have the legal training that

27 [Tim] Adams had, what would you say to people who

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00163

1 you referred to [Tim] Adams about why they could get

2 help from him and not you?

3 A Well, it almost seems like an odd question. I know

4 virtually nothing about the Rules of Court. The

5 little bit that I've learned is mostly in this

6 lawsuit. I know very little about the laws

7 involved, except in a general way, and the

8 procedures of filling out forms, and on -- and

9 endless details I really know nothing about, the

10 question would hardly arise. So, I guess, if

11 somebody were to ask for my help, the answer would

12 be: I know virtually nothing about how the system

13 works.

14 Q There's another passage from the article, and I'll

15 read it to you. I don't know if you have a copy of

16 the article. I'm not sure that it's necessary, but

17 if it is, feel free to ask your counsel to provide

18 it to you. The passage reads:

19 "Another woman describes

20 Christensen's very persistent

21 attempts to persuade her son to

22 become a client of Mr. Adams, 'He

23 constantly kept calling. Why don't

24 you quit your lawyer? Go to

25 [Tim] Adams. Go to [Tim] Adams.'"

26 Do you know who that is?

27 A That would be [the grandmother].

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00164

1 Q And that is the sister of [the aunt]?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Another passage:

4 "'What you should do is call [Tim].

5 [Tim] is a lawyer. You should talk

6 to [Tim].' I've heard him say that

7 several times. But he's never said,

8 '[Tim] is a disbarred lawyer, but he

9 can still help you.' Ferrel's very

10 adamant and very sure that the only

11 person that can really help in that

12 group is [Tim] Adams."

13 Do you know who the speaker is there?

14 A Yes. That would be [Source A].

15 Q [Source A]. How is it that you're able to identify

16 [Source A] from that passage?

17 A Not from that passage alone.

18 Q Oh.

19 A But from all the -- all of the other details, the

20 other quotes from him in the two articles, and even

21 more so from the details in the transcripts that

22 have been turned over.

23 Q All right.

24 A Many things identify him, quite clearly. Keeping

25 in mind, this is a small group.

26 Q Yes.

27 A There are not that many candidates.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00165

1 Q All right. And who is [Source A]?

2 A Depending on how much you want to know. He was --

3 he came into the ECMAS group about a year before

4 the events in question here. He got very active

5 very quickly and came to most of the support group

6 meetings, started coming to the monthly general

7 meeting as well, and during the process was

8 appointed by the president to be part of the

9 Public Affairs Committee for ECMAS. And, well,

10 there's a long story here. I'm not sure how much

11 you want me to say.

12 Q Well, I'd like to hear it.

13 A He was, at the annual general meeting, in league

14 with Ms. Malenfant. He ran for president of ECMAS.

15 There's so many details, I don't -- I don't think

16 it would be wise to keep . . .

17 Q Well, I'll ask you a few questions. What was it

18 that brought him to ECMAS?

19 A Like most people, he had some kind of a divorce

20 problem himself at one point, divorce or

21 separation, and he learned about us, perhaps on the

22 Internet. I'm not sure about that, but that was

23 the background that brought him -- got him

24 interested.

25 Q Did he have any family violence issue?

26 A My memory is certainly fuzzy on this.

27 Q By "issue," I mean allegation, of course.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00166

1 A I seem to remember that he did, but I'm not sure

2 what. Definitely a custody-type problem. It was

3 the custody issue that got him involved, and so he

4 got involved with ECMAS, and there must not have

5 been anything particularly relevant to MERGE. It

6 may have been something, but nothing important

7 enough to have him get involved in -- get involved

8 with MERGE, so . . .

9 Q So he was not involved in MERGE?

10 A That's right.

11 Q Now, do you know if [Source A] had retained a

12 lawyer to help him with his custody problem?

13 A I seem to remember that his custody -- I knew

14 something about his custody problems. I was in his

15 house and saw him with his son, very young child.

16 I had the impression that most of his custody

17 problems were behind him at that point. In any

18 case, I don't recall much about the nature of the

19 problems. Some sort of access denial. Something

20 along those lines is all I can seem to recall.

21 Q But do you know if [Source A] had a lawyer that he

22 was using for whatever those problems were?

23 A I do not.

24 Q Do you recall any conversations with [Source A]

25 where you recommended that he speak to [Tim]?

26 A No, and I would not have done so because he started

27 coming to the support group meeting and met [Tim]

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00167

1 there himself. He was coming to the meetings a

2 great deal. So, no, I can't imagine I would have

3 done that for any reason.

4 Q You say you can't imagine that you would have done

5 that. Is it a possibility that, in some

6 conversation, you suggested that [Source A] speak to

7 [Tim] about legal issues?

8 A Again, I don't think so because he -- by that

9 point -- by coming to the meeting, he met [Tim]

10 himself and started coming regularly. There

11 wouldn't have been any need to give him that kind

12 of information that I often gave to others.

13 Q Okay. Now, the passage that I've cited from the

14 article may also be the speaker's recollection of

15 you talking to someone else.

16 A I believe that that was his recollection of my

17 saying certain things in the support group meeting

18 itself.

19 Q Yes. And so do you recall any occasions where

20 [Source A], if [Source A] is the speaker, would

21 have been present at a support group meeting where

22 you made the recommendation to somebody else in the

23 meeting that they speak to [Tim]?

24 A Again, at the time that this all happened, four

25 years ago, I searched my memory, and I could

26 remember on more than one occasion, but not many,

27 speaking -- suggesting that people confer further

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00168

1 with [Tim] outside the meeting about their cases.

2 Most of the time when I recommended people talk to

3 [Tim], it was on the telephone outside the meeting;

4 but I also recall on a few -- just a few occasions

5 doing so at the meeting, if that answers the

6 question.

7 Q That's very helpful. You said "on more than one

8 occasion," and then you said "on a few occasions."

9 Can you give me an estimate of the number of times

10 you would have done that at meetings?

11 A Can you be more specific about "done"? What

12 specifically --

13 Q Made a recommendation to someone at the support

14 group meeting that they consult [Tim] Adams.

15 A If it's "consult" in some broad sense, not

16 necessarily hiring him.

17 Q Yes.

18 A It would probably -- at least a dozen times, I

19 would think, keeping in mind that mostly,

20 overwhelmingly, when I did that, it was for them to

21 get some specific piece of information, not to talk

22 about hiring him.

23 Q Yes, and that's consistent with your confirmation

24 that you held him in high regard.

25 A Right.

26 Q You had respect for [Tim] Adams. You viewed him as

27 a good resource for people, and a third option, in

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00169

1 the trio of options, and, therefore, to me, it's

2 not surprising that you would have made that

3 recommendation a dozen times, approximately, within

4 the context of a support group meeting. Is that

5 accurate?

6 A Yes, and many more times when I was talking to

7 people on the phone, other -- outside the support

8 meeting.

9 Q Yes. Now, the passage that I've referred to,

10 again, the speaker doesn't say that you were saying

11 that they retained [Tim]. He just says:

12 "'[Tim] is a lawyer. You should talk

13 to [Tim].'"

14 And that's consistent with what you would have said

15 at the meeting; is that correct?

16 A Well, the part about the lawyer is perhaps crucial

17 here.

18 Q Yes.

19 A Again, reflecting on this at the time this was

20 published in the paper and thinking back, I doubt

21 that in that meeting I would have said anything

22 about his being a lawyer more than two or three

23 times. And also explaining to people: Well, now,

24 he can't represent you, nevertheless, he is a

25 lawyer and can give you -- can help you to help

26 yourself.

27 Q Yes.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00170

1 A Often enough I would have suggested that they talk

2 to him without -- without using the word "lawyer,"

3 but I do believe that on two or three times I did

4 speak of him as a lawyer saying that he can't

5 represent you, but he is a lawyer.

6 Q All right. And that's consistent with what the

7 speaker has said as well. He says that, at the

8 support group meeting, you never once said, "[Tim]

9 is a disbarred lawyer." You would have said: He

10 can't represent you, or words to that effect; is

11 that accurate?

12 A Words to that effect, yes. I believe it's correct

13 that I didn't mention that he was disbarred on

14 those two or three occasions when I spoke of him as

15 a lawyer, and the reason for that, I think, is

16 important. It's a long, complex story, his

17 disbarment.

18 Q Yes.

19 A And those meetings in those days were desperately

20 short of time. More people wanted to tell their

21 stories and get feedback from the group than could

22 be well accommodated, and so going off onto a side

23 explanation that might get very time consuming was

24 not wise. As I've said elsewhere, I believe, you

25 may have read in "My Case," I saw no need to

26 mention the disbarment because [Tim] would tell them

27 about it himself, and . . .

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00171

1 Q Yes, I have read that, and you do refer to that in

2 the document "My Case." Did you not think though

3 that it was an important piece of information to

4 the people at those support group meetings, people

5 that you were suggesting speak to [Tim] Adams?

6 A Yes, it's important.

7 Q Now, in this passage that I've referred to, that

8 you believe was made by [Source A], appear the

9 words:

10 "Ferrel's very adamant and very sure

11 that the only person that can really

12 help in that group is [Tim] Adams."

13 I take it that you would disagree with that

14 statement?

15 A I think it's an overstatement, but there's an

16 important kernel of truth there.

17 Q Yes. So that speaker summarizing the meeting in

18 that fashion, there's an important kernel of truth

19 in that?

20 A Yes. [Tim] was the only one coming to those

21 meetings who really knew what the -- the way the

22 court system works. He had a lot of knowledge

23 about the law, and the court procedures, and so on,

24 and this was very valuable. And, now, it's

25 certainly not true that he's the only one. In

26 fact, the point of the meetings in the first place

27 was to have the collective experience --

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00172

1 Q Yes.

2 A -- of all these lay individuals on all sorts of

3 things, not all just directly in the matter of how

4 the court operates but even in regard to their

5 experience in court, and this collective experience

6 was very valuable, but, at the same time, he was

7 the only one with lots of such knowledge, and that

8 sort of knowledge was very much needed by the

9 group.

10 Q So perhaps it would have been better if the speaker

11 had said, in conveying this message, that you

12 hadn't said that he was the only person in the

13 group that could really help. Perhaps it would be

14 more accurate to say that he was the best person in

15 that group for help?

16 A Well, by far the best, and the possessor of

17 knowledge that, generally speaking -- much

18 knowledge that no one else there did have.

19 Q There's another passage in the article . . .

20 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)

21

22 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:00 P.M.)

23 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:30 P.M.)

24

25 Q MR. KOZAK: Dr. Christensen, there is

26 another passage in the article which reads:

27 "Professor Christensen has urged him

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00173

1 to hire Mr. Adams. He says, 'Just

2 the one time. It was at a meeting,

3 but I don't remember if it was

4 during a meeting or afterwards. We

5 usually go downstairs to (a

6 restaurant) and tend to BS a little.

7 And that's what [Tim] calls his

8 office. It's kind of an inside

9 joke.'"

10 Now, do you know the speaker of that statement?

11 A [Source B].

12 Q [first name of Source B]?

13 A [spelling out name], I believe.

14 Q And how are you able to determine that the speaker

15 is [Source B]?

16 A The details of the transcript that were turned

17 over, and, again, the fact that this is a small

18 group where we knew which people had sided with

19 Louise Malenfant, and I can't say more without

20 looking back at the actual transcript and reminding

21 myself, but that's it, in general.

22 Q And by "transcripts" are you referring to

23 transcripts of interviews done with people by

24 Donna Laframboise?

25 A I am.

26 Q Now, who was [Source B]?

27 A He was associated with the two sisters whom we've

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00174

1 talked about, the association being that

2 [the grandmother]'s son and [Source B] had children

3 by the same woman and were going through many of

4 the same difficulties. I don't know how they

5 originally got in touch with each other, but

6 [the grandmother] brought [Source B] to his first

7 ECMAS support group meeting.

8 Q So, I'm sorry, [the grandmother]'s son?

9 A And [Source B] both had children with the same

10 woman with whom they were having these ongoing

11 difficulties involving the courts and Child

12 Welfare.

13 Q I see. That's an interesting relationship.

14 A Yes.

15 Q And so you recall meeting [Source B], obviously?

16 A Yes, indeed.

17 Q And do you recall the specific circumstances he

18 found himself in that caused him to seek the help

19 of ECMAS?

20 A Not highly specific at this point. No, I guess I

21 shouldn't say more because I'm -- I could certainly

22 look up old documents and things, but I don't

23 remember anything specific beyond what I've just

24 said.

25 Q When you say you could look up old documents, are

26 those documents that you've produced in this

27 lawsuit?

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00175

1 A Yes. Well, no. I should answer carefully here.

2 The old documents would mostly be notes from the

3 support group, some of which I have produced with

4 this suit, and I guess that together with the

5 things that they would trigger in my memory is what

6 I had in mind when I said that.

7 Q Well, I don't want to go on a fishing expedition,

8 but from your answer I gather you've produced some

9 notes from support group meetings and not others;

10 is that accurate?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q And how did you differentiate between the two?

13 A The ones produced were for a period of roughly

14 three months before and roughly three months after

15 the Post article.

16 Q Well, I'm going to ask you to undertake to produce

17 all of the notes that you have for support group

18 meetings, and you can seek the advice of your

19 lawyer on the relevance, but I'll ask you for that

20 undertaking.

21 MR. BROWN: We'll take that under

22 advisement. It's very likely that it will

23 completely be irrelevant, but maybe you want to

24 compel production if we decide it is irrelevant.

25 MR. KOZAK: Thank you.

26 UNDERTAKING NO. 16:

27 (UNDER ADVISEMENT) PRODUCE ALL OF THE NOTES THAT

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00176

1 DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS FOR SUPPORT GROUP MEETINGS.

2 Q MR. KOZAK: Now, do you recall speaking to

3 [Source B] about Mr. Adams?

4 A I do not.

5 Q Is it possible that you did speak to [Source B]

6 about Mr. Adams?

7 A It certainly is possible, yes.

8 Q And do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of

9 what he says in this passage?

10 A No specific reason. Let me look at the passage

11 again. No specific reason to doubt that I

12 suggested he talk to Mr. Adams.

13 A I certainly have some objection to part of what was

14 said in there, but it doesn't bear on my suggesting

15 that he talk to Mr. Adams.

16 Q What things in that passage do you take exception

17 to, beginning with:

18 "Professor Christensen has urged him..."

19 A Let me take a look, make sure I don't misstate

20 anything. Okay. It's the very -- the very last

21 thing he says there:

22 "And that's what [Tim] calls his

23 office."

24 To my knowledge, [Tim] never said any such thing as

25 that. What is the case is that the leader of the

26 group, the support group, Jiggs Haiden, would

27 frequently refer to the pub downstairs as "[Tim]'s

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00177

1 study." I never -- I can't remember [Tim] ever

2 referring to it as his office, or his study, or

3 anything like that; but I certainly recall

4 Mr. Haiden often calling it "[Tim]'s study."

5 Q All right. Fair enough. Other than that, you

6 don't take exception to anything in that passage?

7 A That's correct. I do not.

8 Q Now, let's go back to an earlier subparagraph in 15

9 that I asked you about, paragraph 15(b). That

10 passage reads:

11 "Some persons involved with ECMAS

12 have been falsely accused of

13 sexually abusing children."

14 A M-hm.

15 Q Do you have that passage?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And I want to ask you a few questions about that.

18 Is it your experience that allegations of sexual

19 abuse against children is often seen as a relevant

20 criteria by courts in deciding custody and family

21 law issues?

22 A In my experience over time, these accusations have

23 often been made in custody cases. To say that the

24 courts -- how often the courts take them seriously

25 and act on them, that I couldn't say, if that's the

26 question. Surely, if the courts felt that there

27 was sex abuse, they would want to prevent custody,

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00178

1 or prevent access, or something along those lines.

2 But how often they do, if that's your question, is

3 not something that I can speak to, except in a very

4 general way. It seemed to me over time, from the

5 late 1980s onward, that the courts began to take

6 the accusations less seriously because of realizing

7 that they were often malicious.

8 Q All right. That's a fair answer to a general

9 question. What is your assessment of the impact of

10 those allegations of sexual abuse of children on

11 the person accused of the abuse through your

12 involvement with ECMAS?

13 A Oh, it tends to be devastating. The people that

14 come to ECMAS and MERGE often come because of not

15 knowing where else to turn and needing help; and

16 when it's a case of false accusation of any kind,

17 they -- there is a -- it's clearly a big impact on

18 them, and often it's part of the reason that they

19 come.

20 Q How did you distinguish between false accusations

21 and valid accusations of sexual abuse of children?

22 A I certainly try not to make that decision. I

23 clearly wasn't there. What I am aware of is that a

24 lot of people who claim that they had been falsely

25 accused give indications of being sincere and being

26 innocent, but those indications are, you know, the

27 very sort of general thing that anybody might rely

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00179

1 on and certainly not something that one should go

2 around feeling sure of. We have met people that I

3 eventually decided were not to be trusted and

4 others who, after knowing them a while, I felt were

5 very trustworthy, but I certainly tried to keep

6 myself from making any judgment about what they

7 actually did.

8 Q So is it fair to say that you started from the

9 presumption that they were falsely accused?

10 A No. No. I started from the presumption that I

11 should treat these people with sympathy and respect

12 and give whatever help was possible without making

13 any judgments of that kind, but certainly being

14 aware that they certainly could be -- that they're

15 innocent; and if they are, they certainly need

16 whatever help we can give.

17 Q Passage 15(e), which is one that we dealt with

18 earlier.

19 A M-hm.

20 Q It's the passage that deals with the consideration

21 of a motion by ECMAS to suspend you from the group

22 for three months. Were you aware of that proposal

23 prior to the meeting on March 25th, 2001?

24 A No.

25 Q So you went to that meeting not knowing that ECMAS

26 might consider such a motion?

27 A I went to the meeting knowing that they were

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00180

1 considering a motion -- they would consider a

2 motion to suspend my membership. That particular

3 version apparently came up at the meeting after I

4 left.

5 To fill out, I think it might be helpful. The

6 meeting ran from sometime in the afternoon on into

7 the evening. The first part of the meeting,

8 Mr. Adams and I were there to give further

9 information; and then when they got into the full

10 discussion and the votes, Mr. Adams and I left, and

11 information I have is secondhand from that point

12 on.

13 Q Right. The afternoon portion of the meeting when

14 you and Mr. Adams gave further information, was

15 that information about issues that are the subject

16 matter of this lawsuit?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q So was it a meeting called especially for that

19 purpose?

20 A It was called especially for the purpose of

21 considering all of these events, the threatened

22 article in the Post, and, in particular, the

23 question of Mr. Adams and my continued --

24 continuing with ECMAS in the same capacity.

25 Q And so how did the meeting evolve? Were you asked

26 to address these issues verbally, or was it a

27 question and answer period? What happened?

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00181

1 A It was very informal, talking back and forth.

2 That's about the best description I could give.

3 Q Who chaired the meeting?

4 A Bob Bouvier, the president of ECMAS.

5 Q Did he start the meeting by introducing the subject

6 matter, or giving a chronology of events, or

7 explaining what it was that -- the business that

8 would be conducted at the meeting?

9 A I have no recollection of the details.

10 Q Had you --

11 A Of that kind of detail, sorry.

12 Q Had you attended the meeting with any kind of

13 prepared text, or chronology of events, or points?

14 A No.

15 Q So you had an opportunity to address people, or

16 informally respond to questions, or say things. I

17 assume that Mr. Adams did as well.

18 A Correct.

19 Q And at a certain point in time, obviously, you left

20 the meeting. What precipitated that?

21 A Well, it was not felt to be proper for us to be

22 there for the final discussion and voting. It's an

23 obvious conflict of interest sort of thing.

24 Q Did you have a good sense of what the motion would

25 be that would be under consideration after you

26 left?

27 A The part about the three-month suspension, I knew

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00182

1 nothing about when I left.

2 Q So you didn't know whether somebody would propose a

3 motion to eject you permanently, or a three-month

4 suspension, or business as usual? You had no

5 inkling of that at all?

6 A That's right. Just in a general sort of way, it

7 was whether to suspend me or not.

8 Q What was the general tenor of the discussion of

9 that meeting?

10 A I guess I'd need a clear question.

11 Q Did you feel that you were being confronted or

12 accused, or were you being supported or consoled?

13 A I felt that the people there were quite supportive

14 of both me and [Tim]. Some of the people there knew

15 me more than others, and they were very supportive.

16 I guess the most -- the best I could say about the

17 general tenor is that they were very upset that

18 they were being put in this position. It felt that

19 it was a very dangerous position to be in, so I had

20 to decide what was best for the group.

21 Q And do you remember [Tim] Adams addressing the group

22 at the meeting?

23 A Not in any specific, no.

24 Q And were they generally supportive of Mr. Adams in

25 addition to you?

26 A Yes. I think it's fair to say that they were all

27 quite supportive, but, of course, some people

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00183

1 wouldn't say everything that they think, but quite

2 supportive is how I would describe the people

3 there.

4 Q Was ECMAS Edmonton asked by the Calgary branch of

5 ECMAS to take steps with respect to your views and

6 your continuing involvement with ECMAS Edmonton?

7 A I believe you know as much as I on that case. The

8 Calgary group sent a letter basically demanding

9 that I be removed, and demanding that Mr. Adams be

10 removed.

11 Q And you're referring to a document that you've

12 included in your production, I assume?

13 A Yes, indeed. In fact, I think it was in your

14 production as well, but, anyway, it's in there

15 somewhere.

16 Q I have it listed as 12.2 in your production, but

17 you don't have to find it because I'm not going to

18 ask anymore questions about it.

19 I would ask you to refer to document 22.1 in

20 your production.

21 MR. BROWN: 22. --

22 MR. KOZAK: 1.

23 A Okay.

24 Q MR. KOZAK: Do you see the reference to --

25 this, obviously, is an email from Bob Bouvier

26 apparently sent to Donna Laframboise?

27 A Yes.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00184

1 Q Is that your information as well?

2 A Yes, indeed.

3 Q Part of the text of that email reads:

4 "As the board of the Edmonton

5 chapter of ECMAS, we should suspend

6 Ferrel Christensen as a member of

7 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS for a

8 period of three months, and in this

9 time investigate whether his views

10 conflict with the guiding principles

11 and policies of ECMAS."

12 When did you first become aware of this motion

13 being put to the members assembled on March 25th,

14 2001?

15 A After the meeting was over, Mr. Bouvier phoned me

16 to let me know what had transpired after I left,

17 and he described it to me then.

18 Q What did he tell you about that motion and the

19 outcome of the vote?

20 A Well, the outcome of the vote, this has not been --

21 this was not published. It was a somewhat

22 complicated matter, so I'll just fill that out, if

23 I may.

24 Q Sure.

25 A And, again, this was all what he told me, of course.

26 Q Yes.

27 A There were -- the vote came out against me by a

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00185

1 margin of one vote.

2 Q Yes.

3 A That is, to pass this motion; however, things were

4 sort of rushed and scrambled, and everyone was

5 tired at the end of the meeting, and so they broke

6 up right after the vote, and then he realized that

7 there were two major problems here with the vote

8 that had been taken. One item is that they had

9 forgotten to contact by telephone the board members

10 who were not able to be at that meeting and who

11 were waiting at home to be phoned for any final

12 votes. I hope this is fairly clear.

13 One woman -- one of the two board members,

14 both women, one was at home, not very well. She

15 had been at the prior meeting on the preceding

16 Wednesday where these things were discussed for the

17 first time, but she was not feeling well, so she

18 stayed home, and with the understanding that she

19 would be called for any final decisions.

20 The other board member was also at home with

21 her child, waiting at home for the same reason, to

22 be called for any final decisions. And in being

23 tired and rushed at the end, they had forgotten to

24 call these two women, both of whom had been at the

25 Wednesday meeting, to call them for their votes.

26 So there was this irregularity in the voting.

27 The other irregularity which Mr. Bouvier was

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00186

1 late in realizing until afterwards involved two --

2 it's sort of an unusual thing that ECMAS does,

3 allowing two persons to occupy one office. It's

4 something that's been done repeatedly because it's

5 so hard to find people who had much time to put in.

6 And so the two persons, [Source A] and [his girlfriend],

7 at the previous -- at the annual general meeting

8 had been elected jointly to fill an office -- a

9 position on the board, and, by the bylaws, that

10 allowed them only one vote on the board.

11 Nevertheless, according to what Mr. Bouvier told

12 me, he finally -- as he finally realized it, they

13 had given separate votes, two votes, in that final

14 vote on me and Mr. Adams.

15 Q Presumably they had voted against you?

16 A When I look back over it and count up people that

17 told me that they voted for me, the two of them

18 quite clearly had voted against me. And so in

19 discussing this whole matter with Mr. Bouvier

20 afterwards, he basically said that he was sorry

21 that this had happened. It was rushed, they were

22 tired, and so on, but that he would be calling

23 people to get it all straightened out before

24 considering this to be the final decision of the

25 board. I hope that's clear.

26 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)

27 Q MR. KOZAK: So who were the two female

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00187

1 members who were at home?

2 A Bev Fowler.

3 Q Yes.

4 A And Gail Radford-Ross. That's a hyphenated last

5 name.

6 Q Did the bylaws permit them to vote even if they

7 hadn't been present for the debate?

8 A The bylaws allowed for voting and meetings by

9 telephone, and that was the understanding that they

10 were acting under.

11 Q So what eventually happened? Bob Bouvier called

12 you at home to say: Here's what's happened. You

13 were suspended for three months as a result of the

14 vote, but there were two irregularities, and I'm

15 going to fix things up, or address them, whatever

16 he said?

17 A Roughly. The vote was -- he was not considering

18 the vote valid because of those irregularities.

19 Q And what happened after that, to the best of your

20 knowledge?

21 A To my knowledge, again gotten from him and others

22 that I spoke to, he contacted the other board

23 members, and to get a final vote tally, all done by

24 telephone. There was not another actual coming

25 together.

26 Q Yes.

27 A And on that basis, he said that the vote had gone

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00188

1 in my favor against this resolution, and so the

2 motion failed.

3 Q Now, did that, to your knowledge, come as a

4 surprise to any of the members who had left the

5 meeting thinking that the motion had passed?

6 A I have no direct knowledge of that. One would --

7 one would think so, but I'm going by what he told

8 me.

9 Q Yes.

10 A And that's my understanding.

11 Q How long was it between the initial call from

12 Bob Bouvier saying that the motion had been passed

13 and when you heard from him that, in fact, the

14 motion had been defeated?

15 A I think he had settled it all by making the

16 appropriate phone calls by Tuesday evening

17 following.

18 Q And this was -- this meeting was on what?

19 A It was held on Sunday.

20 Q Sunday, so a period of two days, approximately?

21 A I believe this email indicates that things are sort

22 of hanging, the need to reconvened to vote; but

23 they did not reconvene, as I understand. He simply

24 talked to all of the board members on the phone to

25 get their -- to get their final votes.

26 Q Was there any discussion about whether these

27 irregularities had any impact on the earlier

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00189

1 motions dealing with [Tim] Adams?

2 A No. My understanding is that they did not, and I

3 believe it's fairly clear in here that the motion

4 to accept [Tim] Adams' resignation as vice president

5 was accepted, and the motion to suspend his

6 membership or to end his membership in ECMAS was

7 simply defeated at the time.

8 Q Well, what's not clear to me though is whether

9 those were close votes; and, if so, whether the

10 people who had the right to participate and didn't

11 might have changed the outcome?

12 A I'm afraid I can't give any more information than

13 that. I don't know how close the votes on [Tim]

14 were, and I can't speak to that.

15 Q Would you agree that the outcome of this vote, that

16 is, the eventual outcome of the vote, was an

17 endorsement that your views were not inconsistent

18 with those of ECMAS?

19 A I guess so, keeping in mind that when the people

20 voted, they hadn't actually read my book. I was

21 handing out copies for them to look at, and some of

22 them took the copies home with them. They couldn't

23 say for certain what was in the book. They had to

24 go by what they knew about me, and I was there

25 telling them that the allegation that

26 Ms. Laframboise allegedly made to Mr. Bouvier was

27 false. They -- I believe that they generally were

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00190

1 willing to accept my word on that, even though they

2 felt that they were in a very hard situation, and

3 hence the compromise idea of just suspending me for

4 a short time until heat was off, or something like

5 that. My feeling was that they were quite willing

6 to trust my word, but they did not have direct

7 knowledge, so that's the situation they were in.

8 Q Now, in 15(p), that's the statement that deals with

9 the Calgary chapter of ECMAS resigning and

10 disassociating itself from the ECMAS trade name.

11 Do you know of the reasons for the action taken by

12 the Calgary board members?

13 A As I understand the situation, and I think it's

14 fairly well bourne out in the documents, they were

15 simply acting on what they heard from

16 Ms. Laframboise and Ms. Malenfant, acting under the

17 duress or fear of what could happen to them

18 personally and to their organization, but not from

19 any real knowledge of me, or my book, or Mr. Adams.

20 Q Did anybody from the Calgary ECMAS organization

21 attempt to get in touch with you regarding these

22 issues?

23 A At the time, none of them made any attempt that I'm

24 aware of to get in touch with me.

25 Q Did you make any effort to get in touch with them?

26 A I did in the following week, and this is -- this is

27 revealed in the tape recording and the transcript

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00191

1 that has been turned over already of my

2 conversation with Mr. Laberge when I called him to

3 basically say: Why did you do this?

4 Q Any other conversations with anybody else at the

5 Calgary arm of ECMAS?

6 A Not at the time. On a later occasion, and I

7 believe these emails have been turned over as well,

8 on a later occasion I said some things to

9 Mr. Laberge, and his vice president responded, and

10 -- but this was at a much -- quite a bit later

11 time. I'm presuming you're familiar with those

12 emails, and so I don't need to go into a long

13 discussion.

14 Q Yes.

15 A And so those were the only contacts that I had with

16 them.

17 Q And 15(m) is a statement about the Edmonton chapter

18 of ECMAS electing [Tim] Adams as vice president on

19 March 12, 2001. Were you at that meeting?

20 A I was.

21 Q And did you vote for [Tim] Adams?

22 A I did not.

23 Q And did a majority of the people at that meeting

24 vote for [Tim] Adams?

25 A A slim majority, as those who counted the ballots

26 described it to us, voted for [Tim] Adams.

27 Q And did anybody who cast a vote at the March 12th,

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00192

1 2001, meeting, did they participate by telephone?

2 A No.

3 Q So all of the members were present at that meeting

4 that were entitled to vote?

5 A Do you mean all of the board members?

6 Q Yes.

7 A I'm trying now to recall whether it's only board

8 meetings that are allowed to be carried out

9 telephonically, or whether it would apply to

10 general meetings. In any case, there were no

11 telephone votes there. There were certain people

12 who were either standing to be elected to the board

13 or were already board members who could not be

14 there and who let it be known in advance that they

15 wanted, by absentee ballots, absentee ballots to be

16 cast in favor of the current president to be

17 re-elected. So there were some there who -- some

18 board members or to be board members who were not

19 actually present at that time, in case that covers

20 your question.

21 Q Were there any absentee ballots cast for [Tim] Adams?

22 A They would have to -- pretty well have to have been

23 for [Tim] Adams, as they sort of calculated it out

24 afterwards because, as I think I've written in my

25 other document, the number of people who came

26 visibly with Ms. Malenfant, together with

27 [Source A]and [his girlfriend], if you count up those

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00193

1 people, that's basically number of votes that

2 [Source A] got.

3 Q That [Source A] got?

4 A Got. He was running for president.

5 Q Right.

6 A The others all voted for Bob Bouvier. I'm sorry,

7 was your question about Bob Bouvier or [Tim] Adams?

8 Q Was actually about [Tim] Adams.

9 A I'm sorry, I got distracted there.

10 Q That's all right.

11 A Because the votes as it turned out were by written

12 ballot, I do not know which individuals voted for

13 which person, in a general sort of way, except in

14 my own case. I know that I voted for [the girlfriend].

15 Q So who were the people running for the position of

16 vice president?

17 A [Tim] Adams and [the girlfriend].

18 Q Why did you vote for [the girlfriend]?

19 A The story is a bit complicated again. I've written

20 about it in the earlier exhibit from last time, so

21 that I'll retell that story, if that would make

22 things most clear now.

23 Q Yes.

24 A There was a great deal of concern on my part,

25 shared by a number of others, including the

26 president, Bob Bouvier, that Ms. Malenfant might

27 come and stand for one of the offices, and our

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00194

1 feeling was that the best way to try to avoid her

2 getting on the board was to have someone already

3 lined up, some candidate. The general problem of

4 not having enough candidates being one that we'd

5 always lived with. We needed to have someone

6 there. And so in the run-up to the annual general

7 meeting, we were paying attention to whether we had

8 candidates for all of the offices, and sort of at

9 the last minute, there was still no candidate for

10 vice president. And in discussion with Mr. Bouvier

11 and with another very active member, Elsie Cable,

12 we were trying to see if we could get somebody to

13 stand for that position so that Ms. Malenfant would

14 not be tempted to stand for the position.

15 Bob and I tried to get Elsie Cable to stand

16 for that position, and her answer was she was

17 willing to do so if no one else would take the job.

18 She really didn't want to very much, that is, if no

19 one other than Ms. Malenfant would stand for that

20 position. And Bob also asked [the girlfriend] if she

21 would stand for that position, and she, when asked

22 a few weeks in advance of the meeting, said that

23 she would give it some thought. So we went to the

24 meeting with the assurance that one way or another,

25 we had a candidate, and if -- one of those two

26 women would run for vice president.

27 When we got to the meeting, [the girlfriend] said that she

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00195

1 had decided she would let her name stand for

2 vice president; and so in a brief discussion before

3 the meeting, Elsie said: All right then, of course

4 I won't. We'll just let it be that way. And

5 that's basically the story on how [the girlfriend] was --

6 originally stood for that position. She was asked

7 to do so by Bob Bouvier, and accepted it right at

8 the last minute.

9 Q All right. And do you know how [Tim] Adams came to

10 have his name put forward?

11 A I know what he told me, and, again, I've written

12 about this already, but it's, of course, crucial.

13 Q Yes.

14 A I was surprised when he -- the call was put out for

15 any further nominations, and he put his name in. I

16 was really quite puzzled at that.

17 Q He nominated himself?

18 A He nominated himself.

19 Q Yes.

20 A Because, again, we had discussed these things in

21 advance, and he had never given to me any

22 indication that he was thinking of running for an

23 office. In any case, I asked him immediately

24 afterwards, after the meeting when we could talk

25 about such things, it having been too difficult to

26 discuss them while the meeting was going on, and

27 his answer afterwards was that he was fearful that

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00196

1 [the girlfriend] was in league with Louise Malenfant,

2 and the reason he was fearful of that is that we

3 had strong suspicions that [Source A] was in league

4 with Louise Malenfant, and he was fearful that she

5 would get an ally on the board and that this should

6 be blocked, if there was some way to do it. Again,

7 he was concerned about this because of our previous

8 discussions of Ms. Malenfant's possible plans, and

9 so that's why he put his name forward, according to

10 what he told me. And, again, as I've written

11 elsewhere, he was not one of those who knew that

12 Bob Bouvier had asked [the girlfriend] to run for the

13 office, and so he was -- he was not in my position

14 of having the same reason to vote for her. I hope

15 that's . . .

16 Q So your vote against [Tim] Adams -- I suppose I

17 shouldn't describe it that way. Your vote for

18 [the girlfriend] had nothing to do with [Tim] Adams'

19 disbarment or any of his criminal convictions?

20 A No, that doesn't follow. I have -- and, again,

21 I've said this elsewhere, my feeling was that given

22 his disbarment, he shouldn't be in a position like

23 that. I think it's unwise. I don't think it's

24 morally improper, but I think that a lot of people

25 would see it as a bad thing, and so for that reason

26 one should not take a chance on it.

27 Q So not morally wrong but imprudent?

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00197

1 A Certainly imprudent, given the way people might

2 view it, many people might view it.

3 Q And so the concern, if I can put it another way, is

4 a practical one. That organization is dealing with

5 people's perceptions, and people's perceptions

6 might have an adverse impact on the efficacy of

7 what the group is trying to accomplish?

8 A Yes, practical in the sense of prudential.

9 Q Yes. Was your concern about that perception and

10 the imprudence of having [Tim] Adams as your vice

11 president relating -- was that related only to his

12 disbarment, or also to his criminal conviction, or

13 both?

14 A To both, surely.

15 Q And you knew the circumstances of the criminal

16 conviction of [Tim] Adams and the fact that he had

17 had sexual relations with a 16-year-old girl; you

18 knew the background?

19 A He did not have sexual relations with her. The

20 police arrived and stopped him.

21 Q Oh, I see. All right.

22 A Yes, I knew the basics because [Tim] himself had

23 told me at the time when he began coming to the

24 support group. He took me aside and made sure that

25 I was aware of it, and I quite appreciated his

26 having done that ever afterwards.

27 Q And had he also been very forthright with you in

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00198

1 terms of disclosing to you that he had also pleaded

2 guilty to a charge in 1994 of unlawfully

3 communicating with a person for the purpose of

4 obtaining sexual services of a prostitute?

5 A As I recall, he had told me about that as well, but

6 I couldn't tell you at what time he told me, and at

7 what point he told me.

8 Q Can you remember at any time during your work with

9 ECMAS any of the people who attended those meetings

10 expressing a concern to you about [Tim] Adams' past

11 or his involvement with ECMAS in light of that

12 past?

13 A I do not remember anyone being terribly worried

14 about it. Those of us who knew what he was doing

15 were, like me, very grateful.

16 Q Yes.

17 A Maybe grateful that he had a past like this,

18 otherwise he likely would not have been helping us.

19 Q Well, it may be a subtle distinction, but I hadn't

20 asked you about whether people were terribly

21 worried. I had asked you whether anybody had

22 expressed a concern. I view those two things as

23 being significantly different.

24 A I see.

25 Q Yes.

26 A I don't remember anyone expressing concern about

27 it.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00199

1 Q All right.

2 A It may have. Someone may have done, but . . .

3 Q Nothing that sticks out in your mind?

4 A No, nothing.

5 Q 15(n) in that pleading deals with the March 25th,

6 2001, meeting of the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS

7 voting to accept the resignation of [Tim] Adams as

8 vice president.

9 A M-hm.

10 Q Now, in light of what you've said about the

11 practical perception and the prudence of [Tim] Adams

12 being vice president, immediately after his

13 election did you voice that concern to [Tim] Adams?

14 A I don't believe I did.

15 Q Why was that?

16 A Just the general rush of everything. There was

17 bits and pieces of conversation with this person

18 and that person, and it wasn't a time when you

19 could sit down and have an in depth conversation,

20 so that's basically my reason for thinking I would

21 not have raised it with him.

22 Q Did you express those concerns to Bob Bouvier?

23 A Again, not at that time, and for the same reason, I

24 believe.

25 Q I take it from your answers that sometime, not

26 immediately after the election but at some point

27 after the election, you expressed those concerns to

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00200

1 either or both of [Tim] Adams and Bob Bouvier?

2 A Well, mostly because this whole matter came up very

3 quickly thereafter, it was naturally a major point

4 of discussion, indeed.

5 Q Well, I guess what I'm getting at is, did you

6 express concerns to anybody about the perception

7 issue, that is, having [Tim] Adams as the vice

8 president after his election but before the issues

9 were raised by Donna Laframboise?

10 A Again, I'm quite sure I did not, there having been

11 no meetings or occasion to sit down to talk about

12 these things. And, again, if I -- to be very

13 clear, when I say I felt it would be imprudent for

14 him to be vice president, it's not as if I saw it

15 as somehow an insurmountable obstacle and a matter

16 for great alarm. I don't mean to have it

17 understood that way. It's something that's

18 worrisome, but something that, I guess in my mind,

19 I felt that we could work out and settle sometime

20 in the weeks ahead so that there was no rush for me

21 to go to anybody with it.

22 I did have the feeling at the time that this

23 would probably be quite temporary because we could

24 get somebody else to take the position, if, indeed,

25 as he said, he just did this. As Mr. Adams said,

26 this was a stop gap thing that he did on the spur

27 of the moment. My feeling was it would be easy

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00201

1 enough to change the situation in the near future,

2 and so there was no need for me to approach anybody

3 about it.

4 Q At the meeting where Bob Bouvier and [Tim] Adams

5 were elected, was there any discussion prior to the

6 vote about thwarting any power grab by

7 Louise Malenfant?

8 A Discussion prior to the meeting with certain key

9 people, such as Bob Bouvier and Elsie Cable. Some

10 discussion with [Tim] Adams about it and with a

11 couple of others, though I don't remember for sure

12 who the others were.

13 Q But no discussion at the meeting itself?

14 A No, not at the meeting.

15 Q I started to ask you about the meeting on March

16 25th, 2001, when [Tim] Adams resigned and ECMAS

17 voted to accept his resignation. Were you at that

18 meeting?

19 A That's the meeting on the Sunday that we've

20 described where [Tim] and I were there for a while

21 and then left.

22 Q Were you aware prior to the meeting that [Tim] Adams

23 intended to submit his resignation or tender his

24 resignation?

25 A Yes, indeed. In fact, he had tendered his

26 resignation at the previous meeting the previous

27 Wednesday, but the board did not accept it at that

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00202

1 time because they simply didn't know enough of what

2 was going on. They had heard that Ms. Laframboise

3 was phoning people and making these accusations and

4 threatening to come up with a newspaper article,

5 but they didn't have any firsthand information

6 about that. It was all secondhand reports. So

7 they decided not to accept his resignation at that

8 time and instead putting it over until the weekend.

9 Q Did you discuss the concept of the resignation with

10 [Tim] Adams prior to the Sunday meeting?

11 A Well, at the Wednesday meeting, we were discussing

12 that, so, yes.

13 Q I guess what I'm getting at, and I didn't do a very

14 good job of asking this question, is: Did you take

15 a position and tell [Tim] Adam whether you thought

16 he should resign or not?

17 A I presume I did, but there was never any real

18 question. He had already told Ms. Laframboise that

19 he would resign. We all saw this as something that

20 was reasonable to do, and there was, as I recall,

21 not a lot of discussion about his doing it. It was

22 just a need for clarification of what's going on

23 before it was actually done, before it was

24 accepted. But he was -- there was no need to tell

25 him, "You should resign," because he had given us

26 his resignation.

27 Q All right. Well, at the Wednesday meeting where he

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00203

1 tendered his resignation, did you take a position

2 or a stand as to whether or not he should or

3 shouldn't do that?

4 A As I'm saying now, I don't remember any of my words

5 there, but I am sure that I took no position

6 against it, that any position I took was in favor

7 of his doing it.

8 Q And that's consistent with the belief that you had

9 right from the moment when he was elected that,

10 from a practical perception perspective, it wasn't

11 good for the organization for him to be vice president?

12 A That's fair to say, yes.

13 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)

14 (ADJOURNMENT)

15 Q MR. KOZAK: I wanted to ask you a few

16 questions about Louise Malenfant. When did you

17 first learn of her work? I assume you knew about

18 her work before you met her?

19 A Oh, yes, for some years. I could not put a date on

20 it, but I was aware for at least several years

21 before inviting her to Edmonton that she was there

22 helping people that she believed had been falsely

23 accused of child sex abuse, and at one point she

24 sent me some material that she had written, and it

25 seemed to be fairly well written, and it was

26 voluminous. Here's a person who puts out huge

27 amounts of material, and that can be very good, if

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00204

1 you can get somebody who can -- is very good at

2 writing a lot on a subject and writing reasonably

3 well. That's -- I certainly felt a need for that

4 in our situation here.

5 Q And what was it that made you aware of her work? I

6 mean, how did you learn of her work?

7 A I can't be sure at the first. One thing that I do

8 know is that I met her at a conference in Winnipeg

9 put on by a local equality group on the specific

10 problem of false accusations, and she was at that

11 meeting, and I met her in person briefly at that

12 time and heard her speak to the group, standing up

13 in the audience and making points, and found her

14 fairly articulate. So I guess the first time I

15 can -- I can be sure that I knew about her was at

16 that meeting, although I'm reasonably sure I'd

17 heard something about her before then.

18 Q Do you recall the approximate date of that meeting?

19 A I would guess about 1996, but I could be off by a

20 year in either direction, easily.

21 Q The large volume of writing that she sent to you,

22 do you remember the subject matter of that?

23 A It all had to do with these accusations of child

24 sex abuse.

25 Q And was it only that general knowledge that

26 precipitated your invitation to her to come to

27 Edmonton to do this contract work that you've

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00205

1 described?

2 A Pretty well just a general knowledge, being

3 desperate for help. I guess, in retrospect, I

4 should have gotten more detailed knowledge about

5 her, but that was -- I think it's correct to say

6 that that's about all I knew.

7 Q So you had met her once. You had received some of

8 her written work, and you may have been aware

9 generally of some other things that she had done?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Did you look into her background or ask for

12 references before inviting her to Edmonton?

13 A No. No, I did not.

14 Q And for those three months when she received $2,000

15 from you, what was your assessment of her work?

16 A I'm hoping you don't want huge amounts of detail.

17 I felt that her work was somewhat more sloppy than

18 I had originally assumed or hoped, nevertheless in

19 a correctable way. I'm speaking as an academic

20 with high standards of rigor; but, nevertheless,

21 she's quite articulate, and if by her work you're

22 referring to the written material she -- written

23 material she produced, I would say that my

24 assessment was: Well, this isn't quite good

25 enough, but we can -- we can fix that, so it's

26 okay.

27 Q So not great but capable of rehabilitation?

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00206

1 A Capable. Had she had the right personality, and

2 she was willing to correct herself and improve her

3 work, certainly good enough.

4 Q So did you judge her personality to be unsuitable

5 for the work you envisioned?

6 A You say "personality" as opposed to ability? Is

7 that -- that's what you --

8 Q I did say "personality," but I thought that I was

9 repeating a word that you had used. I might not

10 have heard it correctly.

11 A Oh, sorry. Then in that case, when I spoke of her

12 personality, I had in mind her, as I discovered

13 later, her unwillingness to work in a congenial way

14 with other people, and I think if she -- if she had

15 been more willing to work cooperatively, then there

16 would have been no problem because she does have

17 the ability.

18 Q How did that uncooperative attitude first manifest

19 itself?

20 A Here again, I'm not sure how much detail you want,

21 how much -- I'm certainly not sure how much is

22 relevant really, but very soon after she arrived in

23 Edmonton, I became aware that she's very rigid,

24 very judgmental, very insensitive to other people,

25 and it just got worse from there.

26 Q And her insensitivity and rigidity, as it was I

27 suppose demonstrated to you and to others, was this

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00207

1 primarily within the context of ECMAS?

2 A No, because ECMAS was not directly involved in

3 this. She was working for me on people -- stories

4 of people that were -- that come to MERGE meetings.

5 Q Yes.

6 A Which I think -- I guess that answers your

7 question.

8 Q Yes. So was she actively involved at MERGE

9 meetings?

10 A What happened was that when she first came, I held

11 a meeting of the MERGE Police Committee and the

12 MERGE Child Welfare Committee, two separate

13 meetings right away, invited her to each one and

14 introduced her to the group and explained to them

15 that we've had this problem of needing to get your

16 stories written up in a nice, careful way, and I

17 hadn't had time to do it, and many of you have not

18 had really the ability to do it, to do it well, so

19 now we've got someone here who can help get these

20 stories written up, research them and written up.

21 Subsequent to those first two meetings, we

22 began having some serious conflicts, and so I

23 didn't call any more MERGE meetings at which she

24 would have attended.

25 Q I'm just trying to get an idea of the nature of the

26 conflicts. Was she reluctant to write the stories,

27 or was she --

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00208

1 A Oh, no, she was -- I mean, that -- not to write the

2 stories, and it wasn't really so much a conflict

3 over the stories themselves initially, although at

4 the end I discovered that she was not happy with my

5 making suggestions on changes and the need for

6 such. The problem was much more serious than that,

7 as I see it.

8 Again, I'm wondering just how much this is

9 really relevant to the lawsuit. I'm perfectly

10 willing to share it, but I'm -- you can see that

11 I'm a bit concerned.

12 Q Well, no, I believe it is relevant, and that's why

13 I've asked the question. You know, your counsel is

14 here to object to things that aren't relevant. I

15 see it as relevant, given the nature of the

16 allegations made and the suggestion that there was

17 malice in either direction, either the Counterclaim

18 or the Claim.

19 A M-hm.

20 Q So I'm trying to get a sense of what it was that

21 caused the falling out between you and

22 Ms. Malenfant.

23 A I'm perfectly willing to share that. My concern is

24 that if Donna didn't know any of these details,

25 then it wouldn't be relevant to her -- any malice

26 on her part, although it certainly would be

27 relevant to the motives of Ms. Malenfant.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00209

1 MR. BROWN: He's just here to discover

2 you, so he can -- you can elaborate on it. If it

3 turns out that it's irrelevant, then it goes by the

4 wayside, but you might as well.

5 A Okay. Let's see if I can give enough -- more

6 detail that would be helpful.

7 The biggest problem arose from the fact that

8 she's a very harsh person, very harsh and

9 judgmental, and she would -- when she disagrees

10 with something, instead of discussing it and

11 arguing, as a philosopher might, here are my

12 reasons, and so on, it was more like sneering and

13 jeering, and I found that hard to deal with. And

14 when I reacted negatively, she became even worse.

15 And worst of all, she began making false

16 accusations at me, not to anybody else at that

17 point, just saying things that -- making claims

18 about what I had said and done that we both knew

19 were false, and to me this is scary.

20 When I -- when she persisted in this behavior,

21 I said: Look, I have to protect myself. Let us

22 from this point on, unless other people are around

23 so I have witnesses, let us communicate just by

24 telephone, and let us both record those telephone

25 conversations, or by email. I was that concerned

26 by that point about being falsely accused by

27 Louise Malenfant.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00210

1 Q MR. KOZAK: What was she falsely accusing

2 you of?

3 A A variety of things. I do have some records on

4 this at this point from the time that it began to

5 start, sometimes quite trivial things, and the

6 trivial things can be even scarier because you say:

7 Why would a person go that far knowing that it's

8 not true?

9 I hesitate to answer in a lot of detail

10 without going back and looking at some of -- some

11 of the emails that I have, for example, but let's

12 see if I can -- if I can remember.

13 Okay, there was -- I had said: It looks as

14 if there's so much conflict here that we may not be

15 able to work together. And her email came back and

16 said: You're trying to drive me out of Alberta.

17 Now, this is quite crazy. Not being able to work

18 together is not the same thing as saying: I want

19 to drive her out of the province. But the fact

20 that she would say this sort of thing, sort of

21 outrageous thing, put a lot of fear into me. I

22 hope that an example will help, but it was this

23 kind of thing.

24 Q Well, did it go beyond a communication problem,

25 because to me that sounds as if you've expressed a

26 concern, and she has escalated the concern, I'm

27 sure in your mind very inappropriately? Was it

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00211

1 something beyond that?

2 A Well, again, there were -- there were many events,

3 and I wouldn't want to try to describe them here

4 without checking some of my notes, but one from

5 very early on I can report.

6 I was -- she did not have an automobile, did

7 not drive, and so initially I was driving her

8 around to various meetings, and on one occasion I

9 was taking her out to meet this long-time activist,

10 Elsie Cable, whom I mentioned. We were driving

11 out, and on the way she said: Could we stop and

12 get some coffee? And it didn't seem like a very

13 serious matter to me. I said: Oh, please wait.

14 When we get to Elsie's, she'll have some waiting

15 for you. She likes to serve her guests. And a

16 little farther along, we were coming up to a

17 7-Eleven, and she said: I'd like to go in there

18 and use the restroom. So I stopped there, and

19 instead of heading for the restroom when she got

20 inside, she headed straight for the coffee machine,

21 and, not thinking quite fast enough, I said: Oh,

22 remember, Elsie can give us some coffee when we get

23 there. And she looked at me with steely eyes and

24 said: Don't give me orders.

25 There were lots of things like that that I

26 found very, very hard to deal with.

27 Q It sounds like you two didn't hit it off.

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00212

1 A That's a correct inference.

2 Q All right. Well, perhaps what I'll do is I'll ask

3 you to check the emails that you've referred to, to

4 see if there are other instances that shed some

5 light on this falling out that you've had, because

6 I draw a distinction between the types of examples

7 that you've given, which I'm sure were very

8 troubling to you, and what you had conveyed

9 earlier, that is, where you were "falsely accused"

10 of things, I think those were your words, so in

11 this case she falsely accused you of giving her

12 orders. Is that a fair description?

13 A I wasn't thinking of it that way. I was thinking

14 of her accusation that I meant to drive her out of

15 the province.

16 Q I see. Would it be fair to characterize your worry

17 as she misunderstood or misinterpreted things that

18 you said to her?

19 A It's hard for me to see how a reasonable person

20 could misunderstand that egregiously, so I guess I

21 wouldn't accept that.

22 Q Well, I'm going to ask you to undertake to produce

23 any emails or other documents that you have that

24 document the falling out or the deterioration in

25 your relationship with Louise Malenfant, subject to

26 any concern or objection that your counsel has to

27 relevance. Would you undertake to provide those to

A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.

Phone: (780) 497-4223


00213

1 your lawyer?

2 A Subject to relevance, yes, that's not a problem.

3 Q All right.

4 UNDERTAKING NO. 17:

5 PRODUCE ANY EMAILS OR OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT

6 DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS THAT DOCUMENT THE FALLING OUT

7 OR THE DETERIORATION IN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH

8 LOUISE MALENFANT.

9 Q MR. KOZAK: How soon in this three-months

10 tenure, and I'm referring to the three months for

11 which she was paid, did these issues start to

12 manifest themselves?

13 A Quite early on, the first couple of weeks really,

14 and what happened then, we had quite a -- quite a

15 blow-up over it; but then as we got close to the

16 end of the first month, she began talking in a more

17 reasonable way to question whether she would get

18 paid again, and we managed to get a detente, and we

19 worked together, mostly uneventfully, until close

20 to the end of the three-month period.

21 Q In your mind, was she that mercenary that she

22 modified her behavior just to assure herself of

23 getting the next $2,000 installment?

24 A Well, she doesn't have any money otherwise, so it's

25 -- but, obviously, I can't -- I can't speak to her