DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (ďDLĒ) AND [The Grandmother] [ďTGĒ]
[As explained elsewhere, the names of the reporter's four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been† replaced, in this version of the lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]
DL:††††† Hello. May I speak to Mrs. [the grandmother], please?
DL:††††† Hi, itís Donna from the National Post. How are you?
TG:††††† Oh, Iím fine, thank you, Donna. Iím sorry my voice is still a little bit creaky, but I just got out of bed.
DL:††††† Oh, no. Iím sorry.
TG:††††† No, no, thatís okay. I have to get up anyway Ďcause I have to be at a job by 9:00.
DL:††††† Oh, dear.† Well, thatís okay. No problem.† Well, we wonít Ė I wonít take too much†† of your time.
DL:††††† Um, I am Ė have the sad duty to kind of do a little news story about some of the, um, not so great things that have been going on in ECMAS, you know, ≠≠≠†††††† †††††††† ††††--------------------
DL:††††† And, um, I was wondering if you could just spare a few minutes to kind of tell me in your own words Ėwhat Iím looking for is Ė Iím concerned about Mr. Adams and Iím wondering if you could tell me how long youíd been in the organization, what role Mr. Adams has played and, you know, whether you have any concerns about him
DL:††††† having become vice president recently.
TG:††††† Well, Iíve belonged to the organization I would think at least about three years.
DL:††††† Three years? Okay.
TG:††††† And, of course, at first, youíre new; you donít know what to expect. So, youíre running to this meeting, that meeting, the nextí meeting, the whole nine yards.
[TG attended few ECMAS meetings over the years; she is referring mostly to MERGE meetings.]
TG:††††† And, then, of course, [Tim] Adams, but you donít know too much about him.
DL:††††† Whatís he doing when heís there? Is he just part of the group with everyone else?
TG:††††† Well, basically. Yeah, heís just basically part of the group. And different people, because heís a lawyer, go up to speak to him and what not. And, um, thatís about the extent of it.
DL:††††† Okay.† Did you ever find out that he was a disbarred lawyer?† Did you know that?† Or when did you find that out?
TG:††††† I found that out, I would say, almost a year ago. [On the only occasion she ever met him.]
DL:††††† Okay. How did you find that out?
TG:††††† Uh, one evening, there was a Ė what was it now? A support group meeting.
TG:††††† So, this individual that I know who doesn't have a ride I said I would take him and weíll go to the support group meeting. So, then we went to the meeting and after the meeting they decided to go downstairs for coffee, but there was no place for coffee, so we went into the bar part.
TG:††††† So, anyway, this fellow that I drove, plus myself and [Tim] Adams were sitting side- by-side. So at that point I found out that he was disbarred and he basically told us why. But, you know, it just went over my head.
DL:††††† So what did he say? Do you remember?
TG:††††† Well, be basically said that he was representing a young prostitute, 16-year-old prostitute, and one of the lawyers in the firm reported him and that he had had sex with this, I believe she was 16, the prostitute that he was representing.† [As for Ms.
Malenfant, we'll† note later that she told the reporter I had informed her of his disbarment six months earlier. In fact, I took her to Mr. Adams' home-office back then,
where he himself told her about it.]† ††††††††††††† †[Back] †
TG:††††† And, um, but anyway, like I said, it basically went over my head. Because I thought, well, Iím not going to use you anyway. But prior to this all happening, Farrel Christensen, because we were in the midst of court happenings and we had a lawyer, of course, that was very costly, and he constantly kept calling. Why don't you quit your lawyer; go to [Tim] Adams. Go to [Tim] Adams.††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Next]
DL:††††† So, he would call you and say this?
TG:††††† Oh, time and time again.
DL:††††† On the phone? Like call on the phone?
TG:††††† On the phone. Yes. Uh-hum.
DL:††††† So, it wasnít like it just happened to be something he mentioned once or twice at a meeting. He would phone to talk about this?
TG:††††† Oh, yes, definitely. Because he knew we were in the midst of seeing lawyers and taking our Ė my son actually Ė taking his case to court. [Note that her frequent word 'we' is not referring to her son but to her sister. The two sisters did everything together in trying to help him.]
TG:††††† And, of course, complaining about the cost of lawyer fees and so on and so forth.
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Back]
TG:††††† And, so he would, you know, he would phone us here - or me. I would talk to him most because my son was off teaching. [This is the only place in either sister's interview that†even hints--falsely--that I ever spoke to the son about Mr. Adams, contrary to the article's claim that I had made
"attempts to persuade her son". It also sounds here as if he lived with TG; if that is true, I was never aware of it. And I rarely phoned her; I usually called her sister.
TG's 'most' may have been a guess that he answered at least once when I called.]†††† [Back]†††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† And, you know, go to [Tim] Adams. Go to
††††††††††† [Tim] Adams. He can advise you. He can do this. †So I just - I never did call him.††††††† I never called [Tim]. I never called [Tim]. So then one day I thought, well, I may as well call him and get this thing over with. So I phoned him. And, I basically told him the situation of my son and his little boyís story and the whole bit and so anyway, well, yes, we could come and see him, but he charges $90 an hour and so then I thought, well, this is kind of stupid. If heís going to charge us $90 an hour, he canít even repre-, but then he also mentioned I canít represent you in court.
TG:††††† And I thought, well, this is stupid. Pay him $90. He canít even represent you in court. You might as well pay another $50, $60 to your lawyer that can represent you. [This failure to see that by far the greatest savings in self-representation arise from paying for many fewer hours appears to reflect serious lack of understanding in general on the part of TG.]††††††
TG:††††† So we never did go to [Tim] Adams.
TG:††††† But it was Ė the issue was certainly pushed by Ferrel to us. Go to [Tim] Adams, Go to [Tim] Adams.††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† U00364
DL:††††† Now, do you think that this happened Ė this kind of conversation happened like
three times, or ten times or 20 times?
TG:††††† Where Ferrel would call?
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah.
TG:††††† Oh, I would say at least 5, 6, 7Ė every time I saw him he would mention it. And, of course, at that time, we were going to meetings and all this kind of stuff, but Ė and doing little walks in front of Anne McLellanís office or various places. [For the record,
the two events at McLellan's office were long after the period when I urged that she talk to Mr, Adams about hiring him. If I mentioned his name at those times, it was
in regard to free information.]
DL: †††† Right
TG:††††† But I would say at least 6, 8 times.
DL:††††† Okay. Over a period of
TG:††††† Well, I would Ė probably, oh, what can I say now
DL:††††† Iím sorry.
TG:††††† Never mind. Oh, this is hard.
TG:††††† But several months. I canít say just how many, but every chance Ė every opportunity he seemed to have, he would Ė call [Tim] Adams.
DL:††††† Okay. So, so, so, but you, so, you actually phoned [Tim] and spoke to [Tim] and† [Tim] Ė it was then that [Tim] told you, I canít represent you and I charge $90 an hour.
TG:††††† He said that heís disbarred and, as a result, he will give advice. [Still seeming not to have understood that the suggestion was for her son to represent himself.]
TG:††††† But he does charge $90 an hour. But I could not Ė and I said, but you canít represent us in court then. And he said, no, I could not represent you in court.†† Well, at that point, that didnít make sense to me anymore.
DL:††††† Now, did he ask you what your financial situation was? Like, did he say, well, you know, um, you know Ė what Iím trying to get at is Ė is when I spoke to [Tim] Adams yesterday and asked him how much he charged, he said to me that that totally depended on how much money people had and if they had no money, he just did†††††††† it for free.
TG:††††† Well, possibly thatís the case. But, in my situation, I asked him how much he charged.
TG:††††† And he said $90 an hour. And I understand Ė now heís charging $100.
DL:††††† Do you know anyone else that I might talk to who could Ė whoís used him or who has had a similar experience to you whoís, you know, maybe didnít use him, but has been urged to use him?
DL:††††† Can you think of anyone?
TG:††††† A David Ėoh, whatís his last name here? David, uh, McCallum, I think his name is.
DL:††††† McCaIlum? Yeah.
TG:††††† I believe his last name is McCallum.
TG:††††† And I think I have his phone number, too.† Well, I guess I better have, or else it wonít do you much good.
DL:††††† Youíre a sweetie.
TG:††††† Okay. Oh, this - my name will not be mentioned, right? Iím off the record?--->
DL:††††† Okay. I was going to ask you about that.
TG:††††† Yeah. Um, yeah, Iíd rather be off the record because I understand thereís lots of trouble brewing and the whole bit in regards to him being our vice president. Which I donít agree with. I donít want him in there. I donít think Ferrel should be in there either. But thatís my opinion. [Wants her name left out due to trouble in the group (Malenfant had cast absentee ballots for her in the election); is clearly saying she wants to avoid that trouble.] --->
DL:††††† Okay. Now, just to clarify for a minute. Off the record means that whatever you tell me I wonít print. But
TG:††††† Oh, you can print what I tell you, but not my name.†††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††† --->
DL:††††† Not your name. Okay.
TG:††††† No. Please donít.
DL:††††† Okay. May I just ask you why. You know, I donít want to pressure you, I just Ė my editorís going to say, well, why doesnít that person want their name used? And why doesnít that person want their name used?†††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††† --->
TG:††††† Because I wasnít at the election meeting but I understand there was a big kerfuffle there.† [Again she says the reason she wants her name left out is troubles in the group--but doesn't mention her court case until later in the interview, after more pressure over use of her name.]†††† [Back]†††††
††††††††††††††††††††††† † And because different things have come out about Ferrel having written this book and I havenít read it myself, but pieces and talking to some people, I understand that, um, weíre fighting on behalf of children, right,
TG:††††† that are abused, etc. and so on and so forth.† Ferrelís ideas are almost that he thinks itís okay for young children to have sex with each other, young children to be exposed to sex and all this kind of stuff. Well, to me, I donít believe that.
TG:††††† I believe that we are trying to fight this type of thing. I mean, a lot of our fathers within the group are charged with sex abuse assaults Ė allegations Ė sexual abuse of children.
DL:††††† And you think some of those allegations are true or no?
TG:††††† Or no. No. I havenít heard of one case within the group that are true. Not one.
DL:††††† So theyíre false allegations then?
TG:††††† And I would say in most cases, false allegations.† I have not read the court reports of the individuals or anything else, but knowing some of the Ė I know of one person for sure.† He was charged with it and, um, I know for sure heís not guilty. The mother of my son Ė or of my grandson Ė made the same allegation against my son.
TG:††††† He had to go down and clear himself and the whole bit. So, as a result, I truly believe Ė there might be the odd one Ė I donít know everybody within the group.
TG:††††† But, I truly believe that the biggest majority are false allegations. And, because having found out that Ferrel has written a book of this nature, Iím really sceptical about Ferrel Christensen.† [Just above here, on p. 5, the grandmother says she hadn't read it.]
TG:††††† Very sceptical.
DL:††††† So, do you think him being involved in the group harms the group and harms fathers who go there.
TG:††††† Yes. Because I truly believe that Ė like I have made up my mind I am not going back to any meetings. Iíve had it.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††† [Back]
Th:†††††† I will not go back to meetings.
DL:††††† So youíre quitting the group?
TG:††††† Well, I bought my membership. Unless thereís changes made and what not, yes,
Iím basically not going back to any meetings.
TG:††††† I still have my membership for a year, but no, I will not.
DL:††††† Okay. Because you donít want to be associated?
TG:††††† With that type of thinking.
DL:††††† Right. Okay. Okay. So
TG:††††† And then him insisting that people go to [Tim] Adams and now [Tim] Adams being the vice president of the group as welt, I think thatís Ė I think itís terrible.
TG:††††† I think itís absolutely terrible.
DL:††††† Right. Right. Okay, now, I don't want to pressure you, and so I'm not going to ever say this again to you, but I want to explain that from our perspective† [Referring to her
attempts earlier in this interview to get TG to allow use of her name in print, the reporter tries again. It would
appear that, having already granted anonymity to her first informant, she was getting worried about all the rest.]†
DL:††††† when we write a newspaper article
DL:††††† its important for us to have some people who are willing to have their names used.
DL:††††† Because otherwise it looks like we could be making it up, you know. Well, this person, unnamed source; that person, unnamed source. So, if you change your mind
TG:††††† Well, I'll tell you what you can do. You can use my second name. Monica. But not my last name.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
TG:††††† You can do that.
DL:††††† Well, no, I need a - you know, I need to be able to put a real name.
TG:††††† Yeah. Yeah, you can use my second name Monica.
DL:††††† Right No, no, I'm sorry. That's not - either I - you know, I use the name that you
††††††††††† known by in the community
DL:††††† or I don't identify you at all. So, you know, that's - and that's okay and I respect that. All I'm saying is that if you decide that you
DL:††††† feel strongly enough about it and that there is no risk to you or to your son by being
††† ††††††† identified - because what I'm looking for is some people who are the good guys
††††††††††† here. Who are being the conscience of the group.
DL:††††† Who are willing to stand up publicly and be, you know, and say these things 'cause otherwise what I have is a lot of people who don't want to be identified. And I could use one or two who - who
DL:††††† are willing to.
TG:††††† No, I can understand your position.† And the only reason I really don't want my name used is because my son's case is still before the courts
DL:††††† Okay. [After this excuse for anonymity arose, the reporter did not press either of the next two
††††††††††††††††††††††† informants for use of their names.]
TG:†††† and I have a feeling that there could be some repercussions,†
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
TG:††††† you know, behind the scenes.
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah. All right
TG:††††† And this is why I - I really don't want my name used.
DL:††††† Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. I'm never going to mention that again.
TG:††††† Okay.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Back]
DL:††††† Have you found Mr McCallumís number?
TG:††††† Yes, I have.
DL:††††† Ooh, ooh. Iím so excited.
TG:††††† Now, I donít know. My understanding is he was using [Tim] McCallum,
DL:††††† Okay. [The phone records indicate McCallum was never called by the reporter.]
TG:††††† but if he still is or not or if it has that type of an effect on him as it has on me, I donít know. But, I know he is the one that told me about this book that Ferrel has written.
[McCallum was another person somewhat influenced by Malenfant; but he, too, evidently never saw the book.]
DL:††††† Oh, really.
DL:††††† Oh, okay.
DL:††††† Okay. Interesting. Now, so, did you ever see [Tim] Adams handing out his business card at ECMAS meetings?
DL:††††† All the time?
TG:††††† In fact I have three of them.
DL:††††† You have three of them,
TG:††††† Three cards.
DL:††††† Could I Ė I Ė Iím trying to get my hands on those cards, because we think we might like to use them as, you know, as an illustration to go with these articles.
TG:††††† Oh, uh-huh.
DL:††††† Now, now, thereís two ways we could do it.
DL:††††† One is you could photocopy the cards and
TG:††††† Well, I have his Ė I think Iíve only got one card left, however.
DL:††††† Or, I could send a courier a just pick it up and then I could always send the card back to you if you wanted it.
TG:††††† Oh, no, no. I donít care if I ever get the card back.
DL:††††† Okay.† Um, whatís the easiest way?† Is it easy for you to photocopy and fax it to me? Or should I send a courier?
TG:††††† Well, I can go down and photocopy it and fax it to you. Ití II be through a business place.
DL:††††† Oh, thatís okay.
TG:††††† But I can do that.
DL:††††† Do you mind?
TG:††††† And then you might get it that much sooner.
DL:††††† Yeah. Would you mind doing that?
TG:††††† Uh, oh, yeah, here it is.
DL:††††† Do you have time to do that today?
TG:††††† Uh, yes, I do. Um, yeah, I should be able to do that for you.
DL:††††† Oh, youíre a sweetheart. You are a sweetheart.
TG:††††† Okay. And what is your fax number, Donna?
DL:††††† Itís 416
DL:††††† And then just put attention Donna L.† In kind of Ė in big letters. Like, you can scribble it on the same page even.
DL:††††† ----------- copy page. Just Ďcause thereís about 300 of us here and sometimes
DL:††††† the faxes kind of go astray, so
TG:††††† Oh, okay. Okay.
DL:††††† Um, you know, Ďcause Iím very, very eager to get that. Because, as I say, we may very well use it.
TG:††††† Oh, okay. Sure.
DL:††††† So that would be wonderful. Thank you so much.
TG:††††† Yeah, okay. Sure, I can do that. No problem.
DL:††††† So, he gave out Ė now was it just one occasion at a meeting where you saw him giving out his cards or would he do it often or
TG:††††† Uh, well, in my case, uh, thatís was prior to knowing all this stuff. I asked him for his card.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
TG:††††† And I havenít been attending meetings, so l donít know whether it was on a regular basis or not that he was. [Since Adams had been at the support group regularly for two years, this is an admission that the grandmother had been to very few of those. In fact, she went to one.]††
TG:††††† But I understand heís been to the support group meetings on a regular basis and,† of course, Ferrel has been, go see [Tim], go see [Tim], type of thing, so as a result, I would think heís probably passing out his cards, but I canít Ė I canít say that for sure.
DL:††††† Okay. Well, thatís important to know. Yeah. Yeah.
TG:††††† But, only because I have not been going to the meetings.
DL:††††† How long Ė when did you stop going to the meetings?
[Here the reporter mis-directs the thread by assuming 'has stopped going' instead of 'has rarely gone'. The grandmother attended even the monthly member meetings only a few times, always with her sister. (I am aware of their attendance because I knew them well and because I attended all MERGE and ECMAS meetings; and, as noted later, I arranged MERGE meetings around their tight schedules so that they could go to them.)]---->
TG:††††† To be truthful, it was Ė I would say, oh, several months ago now.†††††††††††††††† U00372
DL:††††† Okay. Before Christmas?
TG:††††† Yes. Yes.
TG:††††† Uh-huh. Yeah.
DL:††††† Okay. So during those meetings that you did go to for the three years, right? You don't have any particular, very particular clear memories of [Tim] going around the
room handing out his card for example?
TG:††††† Uh, no, I donít. I caní say as I do.
DL:††††† Thatís fine.
TG:††††† But all know is that different people I would see talking to [Tim] and, um, obviously at that point he probably did give out his card. [For her part, the grandmother is trying to give the
reporter what she wants, even being misleading in not correcting the reporter's plural 'meetings'. For since [Tim]
Adams didn't (until that 2001 AGM) go to the monthly meetings, she saw him only once--at the single support meeting she attended. Years later, she told my lawyer she had never gone to many ECMAS meetings:] [Next]
TG:††††† Because of Ferrelís insistence Ė at least he was very persistent with me
TG:††††† with us, I should say, as far as, go to [Tim] Adams.
DL:††††† Right. Right. Okay. Well, youíve been very generous with your time this morning. Thank you so much for your help.
TG:††††† Oh, youíre most welcome.† And Iíll try and get that in the fax as soon as I can. I have to Ė I donít have one here, but I think thereís one just down the road here from my place.
DL:††††† Wonderful. You have a great day.
TG:††††† Thank you.
TG:††††† Bye now.
END OF CONVERSATION