DONNA LAFRAMBOISE ("DL") AND MIKE LE BERGE ("ML")
†[NB: Judging from the duration of this interview as shown in the phone log and comparing with the audio-tape, 28 minutes are missing. All discussions of the contents of my book and of [Tim] Adams' behavior--in contrast to LaBerge's reactions to both--were over when the taping allegedly began.]
ML:†††††† You want to put that on.
DL:†††††† Okay, letís start again. We were very disappointed to hear.
ML:†††††† When the Calgary chapter found ó discovered the election results and the background of the individuals, we were very disappointed that, uh, uh, that this individual was allowed to run for office
ML:†††††† Of a, of a family support organization.
ML:†††††† And a recommendation to the executive in Edmonton was that they do some navel- gazing.
ML:†††††† Evaluate their principle on which they stand
ML:†††††† and they may see it appropriate to ask for the resignation of the individual.
ML:†††††† Secondly is that nobody within the organization† on an executive basis should ever be paid for services rendered. And only the executive of an advocate organization should upon review of personís, of a personís business, decide whether or not they want to recommend their members to them outside of the organization.
ML:†††††† And our recommendation would be that they have to make a decision whether they want to ó they want to refer people to this person outside.
DL:†††††† Right. Okay, now, would Calgaryóas the president of Calgary chapterówould you ever refer someone to someone who has the kind of unsavory past Mr. Adams has.
DL:†††††† Okay. Why?
ML:†††††† um, because the credi ó because there is a credibility of ó youíre fighting an uphill battle.
DL:†††††† Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
ML:†††††† Thereís a war against allegations and false allegations. Itís being ó itís being promoted, uh, by lawyers and ó by some lawyers. Thereís been ó itís being promoted.
DL:†††††† False allegations are being promoted?
ML:†††††† Oh, yes.
DL:†††††† Yeah? Okay.
ML:†††††† Yes.† We know some lawyers that promote their individuals and itís a modus operandi for some family law lawyers, you get to stage 2 in the false allegations come out.
ML:†††††† And to, uh, for an individual that has been truly falsely accused, the proper evaluation of that has to be examined and to move forward on a credible front.
DL:†††††† Okay. So do you think it would hurt a dad who was falsely accused to be hiring someone like [Tim] Adams?
ML:†††††† Uh, okay. I donít know if it would be ó it would him to hire him for the business of evaluating. Because I donít know his business. Or how he does stuff.
ML:†††††† Okay? But, to answer your question, it may not be beneficial for an individual to go forward into court with this personís name behind them as the reference.
ML:†††††† And again, the caveat here, very importantly, Donna, is I am not familiar with this personís business. But that is my own personal view.
DL:†††††† Okay. Okay.† Fair enough. Okay.† Now, if you were to in the next few days, um, issue a release.† Not a general press release, but some kind of statement that were to make it onto my desk that said this is the official† position of the Calgary chapter re the matter, we are shocked and appalled, or these are the steps weíve taken.† This is our view. It would be useful to quote from something like that. If you donít want to do that, I can just, you know, quote you saying what youíve said. Um, thatís an option.† And, when is your meeting this weekend going to be over with? When are you going to be in a position to tell me what's happened at that meeting?††††††††††
[From ECMAS-Calgary's president the reporter finally gets the response she sought.]†† [Back]††† EE00475
ML:†††††† Uh, probably Saturday evening.
DL:†††††† Saturday evening, okay.
DL:†††††† Okay. Um, and then, you know, we can report there was ó that was. Is the Lethbridge reps going up as well?
DL. †††††† No? Okay.
ML:†††††† No, too far. And the weatherís pretty nasty.
DL:†††††† Okay. Okay.
ML:†††††† Yeah.† And the thing is, you know, Donna, you have to remember here, is that I donít even have to do ó I not even a ó see the way ECMAS ó ECMAS owns the ECMAS name trade name.
ML:†††††† Thatís all.
ML:†††††† And we, as an organization here, you know, they have a set of by-laws and everything that are a good set of by-laws.
ML:†††††† And, back in about 1991 or so, 1991, 1992,1 canít remember where the heck it was
ó or somewhere in there, we got together with the ó some groups that were in Lethbridge, Edmonton and Calgary and we all met here in Calgary and, um, we said look, you know, weíre ó why donít we do this? And basically, they hold the name. But weíre all different groups.
ML:†††††† So, we operate under a completelyó no, not under a completely different set of by- laws, but we do have our sub-set of by-laws in - as to how we operate and all of the different areas are completely independent.
DL:†††††† Right. So, in, in ó so, in some ways you have the misfortunate of sharing the name.
ML: †††††† Exactly.††††††††††
DL:†††††† Although not much else.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† EE00476
ML:†††††† Thatís correct.† So, it, you know, thatís what Iím stating.† And what I said to Louise is that, you know, just by association of the name it better be damned clear what is going on and where it lies because otherwise itó it is falsely accusing people down here.
ML:†††††† And, and that Iím very adamant about.
ML:†††††† Because I canít in my personal business and life, in dealing with the provincial government ó Donna, we're very close here in getting some major changes in Alberta.† And, and, uh, Iím putting this conference on hold for these false allegations. Because thereís no way weíre going to run anything like this where anybody can completely discount whatís being done.
ML:†††††† Itís too important.
ML:†††††† And, uh, but, you know, weíve ó I helped quite extensively with Ralph Kleinís campaign and also our MLA in through here.
ML:†††††† And my MLA probably, may end up with the Justice portfolio
DL:†††††† Oh, wow.
ML:†††††† here for the province.
ML:†††††† You know, weíve discussed a number of times with ó with them about the ó about what is going on and how its killing taxpayers.
ML:†††††† I mean, theyíre losing taxpayers by the dozens.
ML:†††††† And viable families and that and itís causing ótheyíre causing social problems. So, you know, what Iím saying is that this stuff - thatís why Iím getting involved with the Edmonton group. Otherwise, Iíd say, guys, you know, look at your navel and go fix your own damn problem.††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† EE00477
DL:†††††† Yeah. Yeah.
ML:†††††† I donít have ó I donít have to get involved with this.
DL: †††††† Yeah.
ML:†††††† But itís ó it has implications that are too wide-reaching that adversaries out there would just love to get their claws into.
DL:†††††† Exactly. Exactly.
ML:†††††† And as far as Ferrel Christensen is concerned,† I'll make my recommendations. Okay, first of all, Iím not completely familiar with all of the Ferrel Christensen stuff. So, to make recommendations accordingly, is premature on my part at this time.
DL:†††††† Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
ML:†††††† You know, itís ó that would be irresponsible on my part †[Yet he did do that very thing.
Making the claims he did despite its being irresponsible can only be due to trust in, or fear of, the reporter.]
ML:†††††† to go with it.
ML:†††††† However, you know, my recommendation would be that, based on the allegations that are coming out and the, uh, from, you know, through the press and that, is, uh, I think the organization up there should, uh, you know, really look at their affiliation and the dealings with, with Mr. Christensen. Um, and also how he is allowed to deal with members in their organization. [So: he'll make a "recommendation" due to allegations
over my book about to be in the news; only the reporter's own word on that would have had any authority,
DL:†††††† Uh-huh. Uh-huh. so clearly she had told him she would publish bad things about it.]††† [Back]††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
ML:†††††† Because,† there seems to be a, you know,† there is a stated level of inappropriateness that is severe enough to question their credibility.
ML:†††††† And for that reason, guys, you know ó and that's what Iím going to be discussing with them is this is your bag. Youíre up here. You have your people. And it is, uh, you have your own regional issues. Theyíre different up there than they are in Calgary, believe it or not.
ML:†††††† um, so, if you determine that this person is what you need in order to get the job done, then weíll have to make our decision here and, hereís a quote, that,† you know, based on some of the decisions and the implications with the name of
ECMAS, the Calgary chapter and possibly the Lethbridge chapter may have to look
at changing their name ó consider an option of changing their name.
DL:†††††† Right. Right.
ML:†††††† Because thatís ó thatís the, uh, thatís the straw that binds.
DL:†††††† Right. Okay.
ML:†††††† Is the name.
ML:†††††† And, uh, and we operate in a different manner.
DL:†††††† Right.†† Right.† Okay.† Sounds good.† Okay.† Now,† whenever† this story comes out,† it may just drop like a stone and completely disappear or it may catch the attention of some other media outlets, particularly local ones in your province.
DL:†††††† So, that may be another reason why you might consider a formal statement. You might consider putting that formal statement when the time comes on your website, so itís very easy for people to find it.
ML:†††††† Yeah. The website is run by Edmonton. [And here the reporter learned that the Calgary branch of ECMAS didn't even have its own website.]†† [Back]
DL:†††††† Okay. Okay. Okay.† So, you know, you might have a formal statement ready that, you get a media call,† you can say, actually we have a statement weíd love to fax it to you. Um, and you might consider in that statement, because the questions are being raised, of course, are about, you know, inappropriate attitudes towards sex with minors. It would be very useful for me as a journalist to be able to quote what your position is on that† particular topic.† What is the position of your organization? Is it appropriate for people to have sex with minors?†† [Notice well the forced choice:
Either you side with me against ECMAS-Edmonton, or you approve of sex with minors. She offers no other options such as 'Adams has reformed' or 'Christensen's
book was misread'. That is manipulation.]
ML:†††††† Absolutely not. †††††††††††††††† [Now go to the next highlighted material 4 pages down.]††† ----->
DL:†††††† Pardon me.
ML:†††††† No, absolutely not.
DL:†††††† Okay. Well, but, you know, those are the questions
DL:†††††† you know, I as a journalist should be asking you and getting a response from.
ML:†††††† Uh-huh†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† EE00479
DL:†††††† Okay. So, absolutely not. Do you want to add anything to that?
ML:†††††† Uh, no. Our- Equitable Child Maintenance and Access Society is exactly that.† Itís equitable and it's child-based.
ML:†††††† Anything that is involved with the harming of children, which most definitely is inappropriate ó is having sex with children ó is totally inappropriate.
ML:†††††† The promotion of such is inappropriate. Is not equitable and is not fair.
ML:†††††† And is damaging to families.
DL:†††††† Damaging to families? Good line.
ML:†††††† And that is ó that is equally along with the laws, the current divorce laws, custody laws,† access laws and allegations ó lack of action on allegations ó are all harmful to children.
ML:†††††† And thatís why weíre in this.
DL:†††††† Okay. Harmful to children. Okay. Thatís why weíre in this. Okay.
ML:†††††† Okay, thatís why weíre in this. Is to eliminate those inequities.
DL:†††††† Okay. Okay.
ML:†††††† And we wonít ó we will not support people or groups that ó um, that support those views.††† ††††††††††††††††††††††† ††
DL:†††††† People or groups who support† those views.† Okay.† Who support those views.† Okay.† Okay.† Iím sorry about all of this. Um, I really struggled with this story and the decision that I came to is that I would not let a womenís group
ML:†††††† Grab hold of it.
DL:†††††† Well, no, no.
ML:††††††† _______________ do have it Donna.
DL:†††††† Itís ó If I saw this kind of inappropriateness going on in a womenís group, I would call them on it.†††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† EE00480
DL:†††††† Okay. Even if they were volunteers with no money. Even if they had the best cause in the world, I would say, look it, this really raises questions about their judgment. And if I would call a womenís group on it, then I have
ML:†††††† You have to do the same.
DL:†††††† Iíll have to do the same here.
ML:†††††† No, I understand that. I understand that.
DL:†††††† So, itís, you know, Iím going to try to be as fair and even-handed and as careful of the reputation of Calgary and Edmonton, or and Lethbridge as I possibly can.
ML:†††††† Well, we arenít affiliated with that group of whatís going on up there.
ML:†††††† Uh, Donna, thatís ó thatís as clear as ó as clear as glass.
ML:†††††† Iíll be ó you know, thereís ó thatís written in the by-laws. Itís written in the chapter
DL:†††††† Actually, if you could send me by e-mail or fax me those by-laws and sort of kind of put an asterisk beside that. That would be useful for me to quote in my piece. Are you still there?
ML:†††††† Iím just trying to think where they ó we just moved and everything
ML:†††††† and Iíve got things in boxes.
DL:†††††† Yeah, Iím sorry.
DL:†††††† Iím sorry. But, you know, if I can actually say, this is what the by-laws say. They share the same name but theyíre actually pretty independent.
ML:†††††† Well, weíre completely independent.
DL:†††††† Okay.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† EE00481
ML:†††††† Thereís not pretty anything about it.
ML:†††††† Itís completely independent. And we work in conjunction on various issues.
ML:†††††† Um, thatís ó thatís clear.
ML:†††††† Thatís absolutely clear.
ML:†††††† So, the only thing that is shared is that the ó Edmonton holds the trade name for Equitable Child Maintenance and Access Society.
ML:†††††† Period. Thatís the only thing.
DL:†††††† Okay. Okay. Well, except you also work on the same issues, so you have shared interests and you have a shared name.
DL:†††††† Okay. Okay. So, okay.
ML:†††††† But, itís ó itís a legally shared name only.
ML:†††††† They are completely different groups.
DL:†††††† Okay. Now, Iíve got to let you go Ďcause I can only catch Bob Bouvier right now.
DL:†††††† um, but
ML:†††††† Whatís your ó whats your ó I do have your e-mail. What is your ó would this by e- mail suffice? Some of this information.
DL:†††††† Sure. Sure.
DL:†††††† Okay. The e-mail is dlaframboise at National Post dot com
ML:†††††† at National Post dot corn.
ML:†††††† And your fax:
DL:†††††† And why donít you when you get a moment on Sunday after youíve had your meeting on Saturday, drop me a line and tell me whatís happened and if thereís anything else that you want to say as a statement as the president of Calgary ECMAS regarding this matter? [The part of this
conversation about the meeting is missing (too trivial to record, says the reporter!). But what decision was to be taken there is indicated in his e-mail a few
hours later, recall: His group would secede unless ECMAS-Edmonton expelled Mr. Adams and me.]
DL:†††††† So that, you know, we can write that story on Monday.
DL:†††††† And, as I say, itís going to be a story that says, they screwed up; they fixed it. The only question now is how good a job have they done of fixing it. [It is clear from these†words that her story will harm ECMAS-Calgary, too, if they too don't do enough about "fixing it".] [Back]
ML:†††††† Okay. Well, okay. Again, glad itís their stuff. Bob Bouvier is the president up there.
ML:†††††† Iíve been talking to Elsie __________ because thatís who I know. And when I found out some of this stuff, I wanted to talk to somebody that I knew. And I think sheís past president. Because I donít know Bob.†
ML:†††††† And I wanted to find out what the hellís happening.
ML:†††††† um, my involvement with this only is on the basis of an outsider
ML:†††††† by rights. Because I have absolutely no right ó I can make all the ó Iím not even a member of their organization.
DL:†††††† Right.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† EE00483
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ML:†††† You see.
ML:†††††† And, um,
DL:†††††† You're in a very difficult position and I feel very badly for you. I'm sorry.
ML:†††††† You know, but, uh, you know, the clarity is to ó this is a local issue with some volunteers that they screwed up.
ML:†††††† They screwed up in their judgment.
ML:†††††† um, they have some decision to make as to what they want to do. And it can have implications with other groups that are really not really affiliated with it other than having the same name.†† That's like Louie LeBerge in Montreal is the union leader and everything. When he slam dunks somebody, it means that everybody by the name of LeBerge across the country should be shot.
ML:†††††† You know, it's ó it's ó you know, there's a parallel there.
DL:†††††† Yeah. Yeah.
ML:†††††† And that has to be rnade absolutely clear.
DL:†††††† Okay. Okay. Okay. I got to run.
ML:†††††† All right.
DL:†††††† But, we'll touch base, I'm sure on Monday. Okay?
ML:†††††† Okay. Now, I'm up there ó I'm up there for a family ó for family business.
ML:†††††† And with this stuff coming up, I'm meeting with these people.
ML:†††††† To see just what ó I mean, they might, you know, Donna, they might just turn around and say, you know, who the hell are you, you're not even in this area or a member.
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ML:†††††† We don't even want to meet with you.
ML:†††††† In which case we have some decisions to make ourselves.
ML:†††††† And that's where it stands is I can only have opinions
ML:†††††† and recommendations and they can take them and put them in file 13 for all they want.
ML:†††††† um, and, uh, hopefully they don't, but if they do, that's ó that's there business.
ML:†††††† And we have our own business here to make decisions on.
ML:†††††† And our decisions would be if they maintain the affiliations that they have, one of the decisions may be to ó would be to bring to our executive the proposal to potentially change the name
ML:†††††† in Calgary.
ML:†††††† It's as simple as that.
DL:†††††† Right. Okay.
ML:†††††† All right?
DL:†††††† I gotta run. Thank you so much.
ML:†††††† Okay, Donna.
DL:†††††† Talk to you soon. Bye.
ML:†††††† Talk to you. Bye.
END OF CONVERSATION